Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post content relevant to Guild Wars. This includes, but is not limited to: screenshots, guides, tutorials, questions & answers, etc.
Online
Flo
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 871
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:23 pm
In-game name: Hi Im Flo
Guild: Golt

Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Flo »

Hi,

this thread is to discuss the addition of multiple elite areas to the record tables.

Those 3 elite areas are:
1) Tomb of the Primeval Kings
2) Sorrow's Furnace
3) The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

-----------------------

Before I continue, there is only 1 downside to additional areas and categories - clutter. The elite area records subforum is the most prestigious one and the one that probably sparks the highest initial interest in the forum as a whole. Therefore, having additional records that nobody really cares about would distract from other, (to many people) more interesting content. This was already brought up when mission, vanquish and other records were implemented, but since this is now having an effect on the elite areas subforum I figured we should talk about this openly.

Also, please note that every record whatsoever can currently be posted to the other records subforum. So even if people dont want to see these additional areas in the main elite areas subforum, there definitely is a place for them.

-----------------------

Now, in detail:

1) Tomb of the Primeval Kings
This area consists of 4 consecutive levels. On all levels, all (except some unspawned) enemies have to be killed for a timer to start to get you either into the next level or out of the area (4th level). Enemies have the monster skill fingers of chaos and multiple rupts.
One fear would be that the content is too trivial, since pretty much everything can be cleared by a VoS dervish supported by a spellbreaker monk. But then, who are we to judge the complexity of an area.
Level 4 could be considered done either when the level is cleared completely or when the final bossgroup containing 3 "The Darkness" is killed and the first allied "Lost Soul" spawns. I personally would prefer that 2nd option, just because vanquishing the last area is pointless since the reward is tied to killing the bosses. There are parallels to Jadoth/City in DoA here, but it's a little different.
Timing would be minute based and timed the same as every other multi-level area (for example dungeons).

2) Sorrow's Furnace
The dificulty here is timing the duration of the run. Imo, the only real option is to get a /age before leaving deldrimor warcamp and doing the whole run with all required quests without ever entering an outpost in between. The win condition would be the completion of the quest "The Forge Heart", after which you ld need another /age. You ld start a fresh run with no active quest related to Sorrows Furnace. Individual quests could be posted to the other records subforum, just like UW quests or DoA areas. It's decently complex and what people might consider the "real" elite area of prophecies. Downside of timing it like this would be tedious runs to quest NPCs in Grenth's Footprint.

3) The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx
Pretty self explanatory. It's decently complex. Timing would be minute based upon Mallyx' death.

-----------------------

So, feel free to share your thoughts about anything I just mentioned and especially what you think about those areas being listed in the elite area subforum.

Please share your opinion within the next week. If the feedback is really contrary, we ll figure out how to come to a solution.

-----------------------

Possible discussion points:
Should these areas be added to the elite area subforum or somewhere else? Please consider this for each area individually.
How should the timing be handled? ToPK/Sorrow's Furnace

Sylars
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:32 am
In-game name: Musical Was Dub
Guild: [DS]

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Sylars »

Absolutely in for adding ToPK to the elite area board. Sorrows Furnace feels more like a dungeon than an elite area, but I suppose why not add it.

But for Mallyx, aren't the spawns you get before him time gated? If I'm correct and there isn't any way to speed it up, it would be a completely pointless "record" because the time is simply determined by the run up to and kill of Mallyx himself. Which takes less than a minute even with heroes.

Edit: As for timing sorrows furnace, since video proof is required anyhow, just also require that a timer (either instance timer or a third party app with a semi transparent overlay) must be visible? See how that goes and in 10 years maybe we're ready to move to second based records fully.
For timing ToPK I'd say the same rule should apply and that killing the three Darknesses which spawns the reward is the end of the run.

Cruz
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 2:29 am
In-game name: Ashei Cruz
Guild: IT

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Cruz »

I think they should be listed as elite areas initially because it may help spark interest in competing. If that doesn't happen or the area just turns out uninteresting they can be moved to the other section. I agree with everything you said, though I'm not very familiar with Sorrow's Furnace. I also think this would be a great opportunity to experiment with a more accurate timing method, especially for the multi level ones.

Anca
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon May 11, 2020 7:31 am
In-game name: Anca Anderwic
Guild: GoT

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Anca »

I'm a noname here, but as a gw player i definitely agree with the idea of considering Mallyx and Sorrow Furnace as elite area, because well it is considered in-game as an elite area (in the Hall of Monument, you can display that you've finished theses zone the same way a player can be Eternal conqueror of uw, fow, etc).
I agree with Sylars for ToPK.
Maybe the differences between Elite areas and other areas could be the presence of a ressurection shrine within an explorable area (and not a mission) ? idk

btw giving people new elite area will keep the speedrun comunitie up (even if there is only a handfull of people concerned), and could include news guys around (since there is quasi only fully optimized minute based records on elite areas atm it is really complicated to enter the gw speedrun community - just a personnal opinion tho-).

Misty
Posts: 524
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:19 am
In-game name: ____ of the Owls
Guild: Illumination Theory [IT]

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Misty »

That is quite an annoying question about the last level of ToPK. Arguably it's not completed until the timer starts, and it's not completely pointless to kill everything because those foes drop ectos. However, I do agree with you that it should count as finished when the Darknesses are killed. Their Zaishen Bounty is the only way to get a real reward from the area...

Why not time Sorrow's Furnace like Slavers' i.e. have a separate record for each of the main quests? That makes sense with the way the area works and promotes more interesting tactics with different builds. Doing the entire area in one run is such a weird strategy that it should be kept in Other Records.

Mallyx IS an elite area and should have been included as such from the start.
Sylars wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:47 am
But for Mallyx, aren't the spawns you get before him time gated?
Nope - the first 2 waves are on a timer, but after that it's determined by how fast you kill each wave.
Cruz wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 6:32 am
I also think this would be a great opportunity to experiment with a more accurate timing method, especially for the multi level ones.
Great idea!
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

haskhasin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 6:03 pm

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by haskhasin »

Misty wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 10:15 pm
However, I do agree with you that it should count as finished when the Darknesses are killed. Their Zaishen Bounty is the only way to get a real reward from the area...
But what about those OP greens?
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ogre-Slaying_Knife

Online
Flo
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 871
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:23 pm
In-game name: Hi Im Flo
Guild: Golt

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Flo »

Not sure where you are getting the idea from that this will be an attempt of timing things differently. This definitely isnt up for debate here, if you want to continue that fruitless discussion feel free to do so in the other thread (as you already did). For ToPK and Sorrows Furnace (if a full run is the record of choice) will use the same timing method as multi-level dungeons, aka one /age before entering or on the first level and one /age after achieving the final objective.

I wont yet make a comment towards individual posts to not narrow the discussion to small details at this point, but I ll share my thoughts on the points brough up in a couple of days. Just two details for now, in case those might influence your thoughts: 1. Mallyx is not on a timer, groups spawn when the previous one is killed. 2. Apparently not all groups in ToPK have to be killed for the timer to start. Not sure about details here.

---

So far, the feedback seems to be positive, but we havent had too many opinions. If YOU dear reader have a bad feeling about any of this or think this might dilute a visitors attention, please share your concerns. Or, if you think this is a great opportunity for some fresh content, please say so as well.

Online
Flo
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 871
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:23 pm
In-game name: Hi Im Flo
Guild: Golt

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Flo »

Okay, since there does not seem to be more input, those will be the conclusions:

All 3 areas will be added to the elite areas record tables.

1) Tomb of the Primeval Kings
Time starts when entering and ends upon defeating the final bosses and spawning the allied Lost Souls. As with any multi-level record, time is calculated by a /age before or on level 1 and then after completing the final objective.

2) Sorrow's Furnace
I am open to recognize both a full run (from leaving deldrimor war camp until completing the forge heart) and individual runs of the main quests (Summit Slaves, Kilroy Stoneskin, "Unspeakable, Unknowable", Noble Intentions, The Final Assault/The Forge Heart). The latter are timed by a simple /age from entering sorrows furnace, the first with one at the start and one after achieving the final objective.

3) The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx
Obvious.

------

I will wait 1 more day for comments/feedback and then continue with integrating this into the rules and record tables.

Misty
Posts: 524
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:19 am
In-game name: ____ of the Owls
Guild: Illumination Theory [IT]

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Misty »

Flo wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:19 pm
2) Sorrow's Furnace
I am open to recognize both a full run (from leaving deldrimor war camp until completing the forge heart)
Then why does such a record not exist for Slavers' Exile?
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

Lurker
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 3:33 am
In-game name: Rift Lurker
Guild: Illumination Theory [IT]

Re: Tomb of the Primeval Kings // Sorrow's Furnace // The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx

Post by Lurker »

I have never actually done TopK (shocking), so please forgive my ignorance.
My issue with the current proposal for timing ToPK is that it sounds like there is no way to properly time the Darknesses death unless you're actively looking at them (aka being in compass range of them) or having the Zaishen Bounty up and seeing it update.
Flo mentioned "Lost Souls" spawning, can these be seen from everywhere on the map?
Admitted, it's very unlikely that you're actually just standing afk, way out of range, during a record run but it's still something to consider.

I have no idea whether this was the same issue that was faced when deciding that Jadoth wasn't included in the timing of DoA, as the only global notification you can get is the gates opening, but it does sound fairly similar to me.
Similarly there is no way to time the subdungeons leading to Duncan when splitting the team, although it doesn't matter if you're timing the entire run all at once.
Last edited by Lurker on Wed May 20, 2020 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest