free toolbox? - discussion

[Chipotle]

This has nothing to do with toolbox anymore.
Also you keep repeating yourself, do you want to play the same game as in the rule-thread and have both sides repeat their arguments?

Yes because you're failing to understand it time and time again. Read my last post and comment on it please.

[Nika]

I commented to it a few posts above already. Talking about loop.

[Chipotle]

No. Game rules have something to do with getting banned. Record rules with getting your record approved. Super simple stuff.

You can't claim a record if it's against the rules of the game. Super simple stuff.
Game rules are also there to set guidelines how the game should be played. They ban because you're not playing it the way it's intended and created.

Uhm yes you can. Most records in the all-time table used the ress scroll glitch in order to be faster, which was later fixed by a-net, and people were even banned for abusing it for farming. Res scroll glitching was technically "bug abusing", which is a bannable offense, but the rules of this forums were always something like "whatever is possible ingame without a 3rd party tool is ok, even if aided by 3rd party tool"

Bug abuse rules are never as clear as third party software. Bug abuse will always need every case to be judged by Anet itself.

[Chipotle]

I'm off now. Try learning to concept of ''overrulling'' please.

[Double Derv Dare]

How do you prove that someone is running a toolbox if they aren't using game altering things like ghosts/dialogue hacks?

Let me propose the following. A toolbox user can disable all overlays, disable all toolbox pms, leave his inventory open, and make toolbox pop pcons on a pseudo random delay from .5-1.5 seconds if he dies, then have it automatically refresh them 10-50 seconds early. Then all he has to do is claim he is using a click macro to pop pcons. I challenge you to come up with a way to irrefutably prove that he is using toolbox and not just using a macro like he claims.

Hell, he can have toolbox send fake mouse movements that can be recorded in a video. Autoit supports this, and it's piss easy to do. A little pseudo randomness and it looks like someone is fumbling around with their cursor. Good fucking luck proving that it is actually a hack at that point. If someone develops in full C/C++ there are entire libraries already developed to mimic human mouse movements by learning based off of the individual users usage habbits. If someone really felt like going the extra mile to obfuscate their toolbox usage, you would never be able to prove that they were using automatic pcon poppers, even with a full video of the run from start to finish. It would be your word against his, and without evidence and reasoning to the contrary, the record gets approved.

Outright banning toolbox serves zero practical purpose until you can come up with a solution to the above. All it does is drives toolbox usage underground. I'd rather simply allow something that cannot be stopped, and individually monitor records for potential abuse. That is at least a workable solution.


TL;DR: Come up with a way to detect obfuscated toolbox usage or all your arguments against toolbox usage for already approved behavior have zero relevance.

[Nika]

@chip: Lol. So does third party software (textmod anyone!?)


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Guess James ended this discussion in a great way.

[haskhasin]

Thanks james.

I'm still interested in point #1:

1) Should I make toolbox free? I'm asking this especially to people who already purchased it. Would you be mad at me?

[Chipotle]

To the people playing without toolbox, you're the real MPV. Peace.

[Pepsi]

The Pro-TBers always came up with the trust-thing.
"We need to trust the people not to use TB!"
"People can hack without TB as well, you cant stop that - trust them!"
Bla bla bla.
Why shall we come up with dead-simple and 100% safe techniques to detect unallowed TB-usage?

Seriously, you cant (and you know that - pathetic attempt trying to take the wind out of our sails) assure safe TB-detection. Thats not what we are asking for, either.
Having the rule that any 3rd-party-program is invalid in records, will be enough. At some point someone will upload a video where you see auto-mobstoppers or a weird Recall-cancle. Then this person has to be banned.
It's just like real life: there is the law against murder and still some people break it. You cant assure people wont and you cant assure you will find everyone who does break it. Though, the ones getting caught, are punished for what they did, thus making others think twice.

You have to trust people to play by the rules - you cant make them.

[Double Derv Dare]

The Pro-TBers always came up with the trust-thing.
"We need to trust the people not to use TB!"
"People can hack without TB as well, you cant stop that - tust them!"
bla bla bla.
Why shall we come up with dead-simple and 100% safe techniques to detect unallowed TB-usage? Have faith in people!

Seriously, you cant (and you know that - pathetic attempt trying to take the wind out of our sails) assure safe TB-detection. Thats not what we are asking for, either.
Having the rule that any 3rd-party-program is invalid in records, will be enough. At some point someone will upload a video where you see auto-mobstoppers or a weird Recall-cancle. Then this person has to be banned.
It's just like real life: there is the law against murer and still some people break it. You cant assure people wont and you cant assure you will find everyone who does break it. Though, the ones getting caught, are punished for what they did, thus making others think twice.

You have to trust people to play by the rules - you cant make them.

This doesn't answer the question: How do you detect it's usage if they obfuscate it. Ergo, this is a useless post, and does not contribute meaningfully to any discussion concerning toolbox.

To the people playing without toolbox, you're the real MPV. Peace.

I'll be sure to pat myself on the back next time I'm on a run.