New Table Design

[Rafe]

Quite simply because one /age is lower than another /age, the in game mechanism for tracking account/character/instance time for the past 20 years.

Fine - but why should that stop us moving on to using seconds instead of minutes. What advantage is there in the use of minutes from /age than just timing a video (irrespective of toolbox / pure timer). We have the technology, we can use it.
To be clear, a leaderboard would be fantastic, but if the table is meant to show the current fastest time, then why is a measurement in full minutes even suitable for that, without using the "it's the ingame timer" as a reason.

You can just look at the factions mission minute table which already has pseudo-seconds records and no one is interested.

Very few people are interested in mission records, period. And in fact this proves my point because I was able to convince some people to do some "seconds based" faction records because it is purely seconds based.

the analogy was about the actual football teams/players who earned the achievements ... not football supporters ; but even so , they are not egotistical or worshippers they are just footbal supporters like .. wtf is this bad take again ?

if i'm playing in a 6-a-side football league on sundays with my fat pub mates we aren't expecting anyone to bow down and worship us we just want to be able to look at a fucking league table , see the stupid shit team name we made and see how we placed

1. I didn't mention supporters, I just said people, including but not limited to players, coaching staff, and supporters.
2. You are still arguing a point I didn't make about removing guild tags.

now you're back tracking about the guild tags bcuz bay6 didn't agree lol

No I didn't, read my post

in what world can someone post a 9 minute run that knocks another 9 minute run off a "minute based" table ?
it's the exact same time .. in a minutes table where seconds completely aren't relevant.. you can prioritize who came first but ultimately no improvement is made

I believe in the existence of seconds, and thus no, two 9 minute runs may not be equal once you consider seconds. Read my post.

having the nerve to say "wanting your old slower minute based tie to remain is egotistical" and likening it to a participation prize is insane , seeing as any seconds improvement you make still hasn't beaten it yet and whoever rocks up to the podium in the minutes section will find someone else already standing on it

There is no podium, there is a table of the fastest runs. If its not the fastest anymore, what is it doing there? (And once again, yes we should capture the progression of records, but for me the purpose of a table of the records, it should be the current records.)

the "faster seconds" minute runs you are so proud of wouldn't grace the minute table at all unless added as a tie .. yet you think you actually done something for *that* table and deserve to be sole place .. smh

I have no idea what you are talking about, but yes, if I set a fastest time, it deserves to be up there as the fastest, same as if somebody beat my time, remove mine. And then I can go try and beat it! Oh wait, mine is still there minute based.

i'm not going to shit on seconds records because they have their place but don't ever try act like people who pushed the minute barrier didn't acomplish anything

That's good because you have seconds based records! Maybe you even had fun trying to beat them by a few seconds! And if you read my post, I'm not saying anything about the accomplishment of others, you can keep putting words in my mouth, but at some point I might have to charge you.

also what is this desire to placate "newcomers and outside ppl" ? bro fuck these people are u serious lol
the game gets older each year do you , we or i really give a toss about making things easier for the normals who come here ? if they can't work out a table or what an in-game timer is , they aren't gonna be posting records period ..

why should we stupify everything for people that don't matter , i notice this kind of brain rot a lot in society recently

Ah yes, fuck trying to encourage more players, more competition, more records, more innovation. Let's be obtuse and stick to a system that any "normal" would struggle to understand why it looks like we are living in 2007! Fuck those people! The game is old, it's dying, just like all the other 2000s mmos, n64 speedrunner games, rocket league, counter strike, and Roblox!

Lets be clear what my perspective is on the table as it is currently and what Strongy is proposing:
It's a summary of the fastest times for each area and each category.
It is NOT a leaderboard for each area and each category
When I look at the table, I want to see what the current fastest time is.
Ideally, there could be a link to a leaderboard for each individual area/category that shows the historical times. <- This doesn't exist in any form currently that I am aware of. No, minute based ties are not this at all.

[BackTwoBaySix]

Fine - but why should that stop us moving on to using seconds instead of minutes. What advantage is there in the use of minutes from /age than just timing a video (irrespective of toolbox / pure timer). We have the technology, we can use it.
To be clear, a leaderboard would be fantastic, but if the table is meant to show the current fastest time, then why is a measurement in full minutes even suitable for that, without using the "it's the ingame timer" as a reason.

Well /age isn't just a measurement time but it kind of like a category at this point, and therefore a direct comparison between /age time and a seconds based time is disingenuous as its like apples and oranges. It's a bit like when standard was removed and the TAS records that were the faster than the standard records removed the standard records, it was a bit unfair to the standard records that were done under stricter conditions. For example Kath solo where I suicide level 2 to save time on level 3, a direct comparison to a seconds records is a bit dumb here especially retroactively. If I go back and do solo Kath and skip the death, maybe I gain 20 secs on level 2 and spend 5 seconds more on level 3, resulting in a faster seconds time. Is it right that it replaces a faster /age run with a slower seconds time, a run that had a different goal to break /age record, essentially a different category.

In Mario Kart 64 they have RTA records and seconds based separately, that which is reported by the game and actual RTA. The frame rate can be effected and result in different than expected times, there are tactics to reduce "lag" as they call it, and there are different tactics depending on if the runner is going for a RTA or in-game time. It's kind of what we are doing here with /age and seconds based. Collapsing them both into one would be unfair to the other.

[Rafe]

Yeah that's a good point I wasn't really thinking about multi instance missions/dungeons/topk where age is definitely more distinct and "age 0/1"s definitely have culture. So perhaps I will think of them as "age" based records instead of minutes.
However in a record done within a single instance, age is simply the minute equivalent of the real time taken (to my knowledge, happy to be proven wrong) so I think doesn't require its own category in a table.

[Gurky]

Table looks great, might be due the fact I am looking at it on my phone but I would like the party size to be a bit clearer as in sticking out more. Maybe a bit bigger or coloured :^)

And then typing out tie instead of the current = seems a lot clearer to anyone unfamiliar with the system

I see Arias point for minute based ties since in my opinion he is insane at creating tactics but not the greatest mechanical player hence why records look quite easily beatable at times :^) so there should be some kind of recognition which usually should be in the new record post itself but then it's up to others if they feel that's enough or not... I personally don't really care too much but I feel it's fair to be mentioned for contributing.

[Aria]

rafe is arguing to remove minutes based when he don't even understand wtf it is

my analogy was spot on but you're deciding to be difficult about it . it doesn't matter who mentioned removing guild tags first it's just a ridiculous idea for any competitive table imo , if you aren't suggesting we remove them then this doesn't apply to you

being mentioned in peoples posts is appreciated but not necessary ; because if i post a record that breaks or matches the minute barrier on the minute table it gets to stay there until someone else beats the minute barrier , doesn't matter how many other people tie it "faster seconds" afterwards . that's not an opinion btw it's literally how this site works

if you don't want your minute tie on the table just ask to have it removed it's not that deep

as for not being mechanically gifted that's not necessarily true but i do click most of my skills . there's been times i've pushed the seconds time as far as i can go .
i'm not desperate to see my guild on every single row , we're usually trying to beat the minute barrier with some new tactic . there's been many times i could have posted ties to beat a seconds record and just left it

i don't see why we should critique how we all play , i set myself a target of beating a minute barrier and that's all i care about now .. i am mid 30s with 2 kids ; i personally don't want to grind seconds off mission records

i don't have any issue with those who do ; but please don't mess with the tables

[Rafe]

This is my understanding of minutes based.

To be more precise,
Single instance /age = Always the minute part of the "seconds based" timing of a record
Multi instance combined /age = Can be different from the minute part of a "seconds based" timing of a record

that's not an opinion btw it's literally how this site works

Yes, and we should never seek to improve it, god forbid we disrespect our forebearers

there's been many times i could have posted ties to beat a seconds record and just left it

i don't see why we should critique how we all play , i set myself a target of beating a minute barrier and that's all i care about now .. i am mid 30s with 2 kids ; i personally don't want to grind seconds off mission records

This is just sad to read to me, what are we doing here? Having a circlejerk over who can lower an area by a minute (number wise) instead of actually caring how to be fastest? Perhaps I don't understand what minutes based is supposed to represent, because it certainly isn't a suitable level of precision for a time based competitive category, which is a long overlived hangover from when people didn't want to record videos and had to use /age. We now have videos required for every new submission, we can time things by second.
It's great that you don't want to compete on seconds, but guess what, even in a seconds based world, you can beat a minute barrier. In our minutes based + seconds based world, people still look to the minutes table and say "Eh, don't care seconds", which is literally what you are doing here. All you want is to push the minute barrier (who cares if you can save another 40s, as you did on a recent record iirc), post and then go put your feet up if you feel you can't push to the next minute. This is the exact anti-competitive first come first served mindset I was talking about earlier. You clearly aren't the only one who thinks like this and I have also done this or been in teams that have done this, so don't take this personally, but as you might put it, this is some prevalent brain rot within this community and as someone who wants to actually push things it's just sad.
No other serious speedrun community would keep this mentality of implicitly discouraging (via the framework in which runs are recorded under) improving a record simply because of "tradition". Removing minutes based wouldn't even be a magic bullet and suddenly people care about seconds, but the next unfortunate person that decides to join this community might decide to challenge something with a seconds improvement, and then some old school player can get annoyed at them and go beat it to the next minute, and suddenly an area is alive again.

Aria stop reading here, I don't need your opinion on the next bit as it is about the "normals"

Now to get back on topic, I was curious if I was chatting out of my arse, and asked some other people that are not in the speedclear community or who generally have interest in speedruns to look at the new tables, and the feedback I got was either:
Why is there a minutes table when you have seconds
And how can you have a tie
Or they simply didn't even notice the minutes part was meant to be a separate category, and then questioned why it exists after I pointed it out

Maybe we should rename minutes based to "/age" based, since that's what it actually is, and then I can get off my horse about it not being an acceptable level of precision for time and it is less confusing than having two categories that are both "time" (but this would not solve my other issues with its general existence in single instance areas)

[BackTwoBaySix]

Single instance /age = Always the minute part of the "seconds based" timing of a record

This is not always true if it's very tight to a minute barrier or in cases involving cutscene.

I would be onboard with renaming the minute category to /age category as it better represents what it actually is, rather than viewing it as a less accurate method of timing. Here's a couple of where it would differ:

1) Multi-level areas. e.g. fmaw
If you are going for a /age record, on say fmaw you could have a /age time which is 4 'minutes' faster than a different run which is faster RTA. The goal of the run is to beat consecutive levels within respective /age limits rather than timing the dungeon in its entirety. Its really not the same as RTA and the tactics and gameplay reflect that.

It is kinda arguable as well that even for single instance records this has been the case historically to 'secure' /age finishes rather than go for the fastest possible seconds finish.

2) Missions involving a cutscene. Cutscenes aren't counted in a /age so take for example the recent arborstone records, we intentionally watched cutscenes as part of the strategy as our goal was /age records rather than RTA.

The /age cap fear factor does kind of add urgency and the previous examples of multiple people running at the same time have only happened because of a shared understanding that beating a /age record gets exponentially harder each minute it is lowered. As a community we tend to decide to just push something else rather than grind out seconds on something that we consider /age capped. I don't think its a bad thing, especially when we have seconds based so the option is still there.

As I've said before I'd rather we just had more things to compete in than trying to convince people to grind the same shit for seconds/rng. Like boss records, single level dungeon records, running, rushes, content with restrictions, etc. I have been leading the charge with this a bit, unlike you guys that talk about seconds based records but only post /age records

[Rafe]

2) Missions involving a cutscene. Cutscenes aren't counted in a /age so take for example the recent arborstone records, we intentionally watched cutscenes as part of the strategy as our goal was /age records rather than RTA.

So to clarify this, /age in this context is actually referring to the mission timer. Currently the mission timer is used in place of "/age" on the minutes table when its available.

We've spoken a bit about this and have come to a suggestion of changing how we label these categories, which is quite simply:

IGT / In Game Time: The most precise in game time available for the area/mission. So this is mostly /age, with few missions as an exception (shout if there is more) that do display a "mission timer" after you complete them, which is already covered by existing rules/tables. When /age is the metric being used, it should be just displayed as the number or "Age #"
There is a slight difference in mission time vs /age as in our Arborstone, /age does include the cutscene making it Age 7, but the mission timer is 6:35. (and RTA 7:44).
RTA / Real Time Attack: The summed real times as per toolboxes timer, a "pure" timer or time from the first frame of the load screen to area complete. Real Time Attack doesn't necessarily match up any existing GW terminology but it's a common expression in speedrun communities so I don't see this as a problem but open to other suggestions.

This would align us to other games better in terminology, keeps the "traditional" /age timings but more clearly separates what each category actually represents.

In my personal opinion,
RTA is the more competitive category and should be display more prominently over the IGT going forward, giving us the table in this format:

Objective	Task	Party	RTA	RTA	IGT	IGT
		Size	[TAS]	[PURE]	[TAS]	[PURE]
-----------------------------------------	--------------	-------------	-----------------------	-----------------------	-----------------------	-----------------------

but I am sure I'm in a minority here and I can't be bothered to argue for seconds based/RTA on my own anymore.
The category renames however should be something easier to agree on.

[Smiiles]

[Aria]

Rafe the minutes/age table whatever tf you wanna call it is completely different to the seconds table , idk if you understand now

if people look at the minutes/age table and think "that can't be beaten" then that's their own fault , why are you taking issue with the few people who actually DO look at it and think "fuck it i'm gonna try anyway" . as i've already said , people like yourself year after year say that the minutes table is capped yet low and behold the minutes get beaten , wowww funny that ? it's almost like they sit there for years because people don't have the capacity or effort to try something new

read this short thread : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1748

after reading and noticing even *that* record itself was beaten on the minute/age table you will see how silly your argument is ; people said every trick was done , no one will ever look into the discussion again , most minutes are capped bla bla bla .. it was all bullshit wasn't it ?

breaking an age barrier isn't low effort , idk why you keep pushing this narrative .. you seem to be talking for a whole lot of people like myself when you don't even know us , i've posted faster seconds records before come back and beat the minute barrier also ; literally wtf are you talking about "putting my feet up" .... it's called getting what i came for and leaving it open for someone else or coming back later with a fresh outook

its not "anti-competetive" to break a minutes barrier that no one else was able to do for years and be rewarded for it ; i'm even suggesting people get to tie it afterwards . you are coping so fucking bad its unreal .. are you mad this speedrunning community has a history and it's not a complete fresh slate for your ego to fill ?

why do your friends all think like we do regarding /age .. why are you trying to lessen other peoples achievements ?

i've gone back and forth in real competition here ; scraping seconds on the same mission over and over again to keep my tag on the seconds table and it's fucking depressing .
once it gets down to actually competing for 1 second it all just becomes RNG anyway , you're literally just hoping for good mob placements and HSR every run .. for hundreds if not thousands of runs .. how tf is that a show of skill or who is the best ? it becomes a test of patience at that point (and sacrificing real money because i don't bot and time with my family i have responsibilities for) . if you don't understand that ; then thats a you issue

infact you don't understand because no one has ever actually honestly competed with you for a seconds record here , you have 0 understanding of what that is even like because this community is DEAD and no one is actually COMPETING for "seconds" ; that's why rightly or wrongfully they are seen as omegacringe whether or not you want to fantasize otherwise

if you want to post a seconds record there is nothing stopping you . if your friends won't join you find some who will . i managed to with my ragtag guild for our dungeon and mission ties ? lliterally wtf is the problem

i got no issue with just merging the tables so to speak but all this talk of removing peoples existing records and not allowing ties and tags is something i won't agree on ; and people shouldn't be shamed for wanting to see their team remain on a minutes based table if it hasn't been beaten