PURE FRIENDLY

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Flo
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by Flo »

So once again a topic claimed by some to be not even worth a discussion has received multiple different opinions. Shocking. It is almost like sometimes things are a little more complicated than some people would like to acknowledge.

We actually have another topic that we did not completely settle with the last vote, which is intentional slowloading which is currently considered TAS, even if done without a 3rd party tool.

We could have a short followup vote covering those remaining questions. And of course some people will once again claim that the answers are obvious and a vote is unnecessary, but by now most people should have understood that a statement like this is ridiculous in a diverse community. Unfortunately, opening this gateway will result in exactly the kind of ambiguity that was criticized with the Standard category. Only allowing an objective timer that has no tangible benefit is quite difficult to define. Just think of Urgoz gate timers as an easy example - could you set up a new line in autosplit each time a gate opens/closes, effectively letting you know exactly when you can make jumps? All I am saying is that as soon as we deviate from the most simple thing (...arguably, the most simply thing would have been to forbid the use of ingame timers in PURE completely), which at the moment is a simple ingame timer, there will be functionalities where it is not obvious whether they give an additional tangible benefit.

Opinions?

Smiiles
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by Smiiles »

Plenty of times in my Rragar and Bloodstone attempts when I was behind 2 seconds and did /age right before zone or none at all and /age'd at end and realized it wasn't the run. I had to go again. But if I had a timer that would have just prevented me from just finishing a run and resigning early saving me my consumables lol. I personally use LiveSplit to mainly show others a representation the progress of a run.

As for Urgoz the simple math of Gate is open for 15 and closed for 10 seconds. You can nearly always keep track of gate timers as long as you have an ingame timer even without the gate times showed separately.

I think including the intentional slow load as TAS is silly. Any one can do it. It may not be apart of game design but it's an exploit based on poor game design.

BackTwoBaySix
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by BackTwoBaySix »

Some plays require specific knowledge about exactly when certain events took place, which can not reasonably be obtained from a simple instance timer (animation delays, can't see animation and instance timer at same time) but can be obtained from a objective timer that automatically tracks events.

Kaspaar
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by Kaspaar »

Imho as soon as the politicking around TB started, this site has been going downhill.

We have reached a point where, here, on a near dead site for a 16 year old game we are jerking ourselves off over whether having an improved timer is satan incarnate and have put basic UI texmods into a category which is, in effect, a programming competition for who can self-produce the most effective hacks.

Why can't we go back to the sane pre-tb era of "texmod+zraw timer" we had before toolbox? Why can't that timer not be a little less ass? So many much more relevant speedrunning games use autosplitters and there is no autistic screeching on forums. I recommend for this site to get a fucking grip.

BackTwoBaySix
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by BackTwoBaySix »

It was clear this was going to happen before the vote happened.

In discussions prior to the vote I said "Well if standard gets removed, people may be forced to play with the "cheating features". You might not be forced to in Underworld records because there is little competition, but GWSCR covers a lot more than just Underworld. There are areas where standard strats could not HOPE to compete with (unrestricted) TAS Strats ."

I am sympathetic to Kaspar because its a shitty position, play with TAS which is programming war (e.g. 2 of my records have used a rupt bot, 1 of which is impossible without) which sucks. Also sucks to pop pcons manually and use a shitty GUI where you can't see shit. Just sad to see standard was removed on such a close vote, it's implementation was flawed (but ultimately is a nice category to play in) and the same people that voted against it now wish to play under those same/similar rulesets.

Kaspaar
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by Kaspaar »

I'm not even talking about standard, I'm talking about the fact that PURE is a bastardization of the way records used to work before the PURE-STANDARD-TAS shitshow even began. Old gwscr had only one category. The equivalent of PURE, where it was texmod+timer.

If you want to be anal about it, then specify UI texmod, so mods can deny runs over people putting markers on terrain textures for walking or coloring mobs in high contrast colors. There is zero reason PURE can not be how gwscr used to be before gwtoolbox, other than people wanting to preserve the walled garden they have carved out for themselves. That was, in the end, the reason texmod got shoved into STANDARD in the first place.

The people pushing PURE years ago so obviously knew that outlawing texmod (which most people used) from the base records category would push the vast majority into the "light-hacking" STANDARD category, leaving PURE as a desolate playground for them to jerk themselves off in.

Now that STANDARD is gone, the texmod situation has become even more absurd.

BackTwoBaySix
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by BackTwoBaySix »

Ye GUI changes in PURE would be nice. PURE is the fairest form of competition we have in GW and having to play with ass GUI is quite offputting.
Last edited by BackTwoBaySix on Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kaspaar
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by Kaspaar »

Personally speaking, I've been around since 2010 when I was 13 and I played with texmod+timer for many years before this whole category nonsense started.

At this point I'm not going to change my UI with which I've played for 10+ years with slight modifications along the way because it's not PURE-enough for a dead site in a dead game.

Kaspaar
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by Kaspaar »

Flo wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:30 pm
All I am saying is that as soon as we deviate from the most simple thing (...arguably, the most simply thing would have been to forbid the use of ingame timers in PURE completely), which at the moment is a simple ingame timer, there will be functionalities where it is not obvious whether they give an additional tangible benefit.
The solution is very simple, we agree on what the splits on the autosplitter are and and everyone will use the same one with the same setup. Perhaps an easy solution is to say every quest gets it's own slot in the autosplitter and that's it.

Now, I understand that there are many on this site who have the IQ of a small rodent and this is starting to look too much like Standard, which is already starting to make their brains hurt because any set of rules more complex than "make change to gaem?: YES/NO" is too complicated for them to understand.

For those people, just don't spend the time reading the complicated words on the rules page and enjoy the new pretty numbers that show up in a box every time you finish a quest. : )

Knowing this site though, this will start an endless circlejerk of people screeching, "But what if I want it to split every time I reach 234 health at coordinates x:964.60, y:1000.60!?!?!?! What then, huh?" and the whole thing will be scrapped because a select few players won't stop circlejerking over the fact that the entire ruleset of gwscr doesn't boil down to a boolean anymore.

I'm honestly tired and not willing to deal with that shit anymore, so if sanity doesn't return then I guess you can keep jerking eachother off here without me.

BackTwoBaySix
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Re: PURE FRIENDLY

Post by BackTwoBaySix »

Its simple in concept yes but not in practicality... I brought this up earlier in the thread but who is going to maintain and distribute such a .dll? We can't just use tb objective timer because it's current implementation cannot be defined easily and its future implementation cannot be controlled by GWSCR.

Just open objective timer after the run for breakdown and look at timer after quest completions during the run to decide if you wanna resign or not
Last edited by BackTwoBaySix on Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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