Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

[Barath]

i am still not quite sure about how we make sure that the poll really represents what the people think and disabling manipulation of the poll. any recommendations are welcome.

you could make polls where everyone has to stand in with his name, so you can verify that no one votes 2x (that excludes any stupid websites where you can just get a new ip and vote again ^^)

[Pepsi]

I love the idea of dividing future records into sections as “Restricted” and “Unrestricted”; however, the way it has been presented today is stupid.
It should not be a “new section for those weirdos who don’t like toolbox, so they finally shut up” – that’s no lasting approach.


This is how I would design the classification:

1./ Unrestricted:
• Barath’s “fastest times that you can get out of an area by all means necessary”
• No rules for hacks, bots, scripts, macros, bugs and glitches
• No video required

Unrestricted records display what you can achieve in an area, no matter what you have to use.
I do not know if the community would accept hardcore-hacking in this section, but that’s not up to me. If you truly want to show how fast an Elite-Area or Dungeon can be done, then it’s definitely reasonable to use Tele-hacks, In-Aggro-quest-takes, Target-Boo-applications, showing exact Bond-range, using 14men-Teams and so on – no one should argue against that in the Unrestricted-section.
This will -probably- contain most of the records that can't be done without using these means and records no one could (or least "has tried to") tie/beat within the rules of Restricted-records. Solo UW without ID-bug is next to impossible but that does not justify achieving a Restricted-record. Neither will anyone who uses these means to achieve a record be stoned to death – if, however, someone achieves a tie or beats an Unrestricted-time in the Restricted-table, your record should be outdated; just like a slow 4men-run will be outdated by a faster 3men-record.


2./ Restricted:
• Strict rules about any 3rd-Party-Software
• Bug-using and Glitches forbidden
• Video-footage

Restricted records are the records we have all known for years, using only the means A-Net gave us. Restricted records thus have to be done totally legitimate without any 3rd-Party-Software, Hacks, Bots, Scripts, Clickers; but also Bug-using and Glitches, etc.
In general, A-Net-rules should be the basis of these records. If you don’t want to use A-Net’s base line, you cannot achieve a Restricted-record.
However, since people will kill me when I actually propose banning all bugs and glitches, I want to let room for official exceptions. We got Skeles stuck and glitched Dhuum since the dawn of time and I don’t see any reason, why we should stop doing this, now. People told me that banning the ID-bug would result in banning these things as well – I respectfully disagree. Livia verbalized it brilliantly: We are our own admins – we get to decide what should be prohibited. Thus, we are able to allow Dhuum-stuck and Dryder-unglitch independently from banning the ID-bug.
I think we should draw the line where “Clever AI-usage” turns into “Stupidly changing A-Net’s defaults”. Creating new Foe-IDs by dropping No-foe-items in order to deactivate every foe nearby is -in my humble opinion- hardly “AI-usage” and definitely not “clever” at all. Anyway, where to draw the line is a different topic.
Nevertheless, I think the more of our daily used bugs and glitches we ban, the more interesting new records will be.


Why are rules for Restricted-records designed so restrictive?
If you break one rule, you can break them all. This is why I understand anyone who wants most bugs and glitches banned from Restricted-runs. 3rd-Party-Software like Toolbox, though, always was in a gray-zone and you cannot deny that, no matter how much you love playing with it – the discussion was always about how grey it was. Autosweets and all the other applications the Toolbox provides are a lot worse than using Foe-AI cleverly.
Therefore, if you want to (or "have to") to use the Toolbox in your records, you simply do not deserve to get onto the Restricted-table; anyway, this does not void your record – it simply becomes Unrestricted which, in this community, should give just as much fame. Most people don’t care about Toolbox anyway – an official Record-Website, however, should divide into snow-white and black.
In other words: We do not force anyone to play by someone’s “ideal of correct behavior”; everyone can decide which category sums up his point of view the best and play by its standards.


How to frame new rules:
I want to propose a different way of applying rules to GWSCR: Ban a questionable mechanic regardless of how to trigger it. This is why I call it “ID-bug” instead of “Coin-drop”. If we ban the Coin-drop, people will ask: What about manual dropping? What about Pets and Ghosts? I propose we ban the ID-bug altogether – no matter how people want to deactivate foes, they are not allowed.
There is a German saying: “Alle Wege führen nach Rom.” which should translate into something along the lines of “Every path leads to Rome”.
If we ban five paths, people will find a sixth - if we ban 100 paths, people will find the 101st. So let’s just ban going to Rome.

edits: English too hard for Pepsi

[livia]

Pepsi Chancellor !
In Canada we say to children when they grow up: "RP SUCKS".
I think we should take that as a lesson.

i am still not quite sure about how we make sure that the poll really represents what the people think and disabling manipulation of the poll. any recommendations are welcome.

But there is a button "I'm not a robot"

[Nika]

Every single solution has it's flaws.
I personally like what Mike said, ban any third party programms and require a vid. Allow ingame Bugs. It's clean. It's by the rules of Anet. But it limits playing to manually coindropping the shit out of everything.
Ask yourselves, would you really love and enjoy to compete under these circumstances? And doesn't each mechanic require it's own thought process to get the fastest time possible given the tools used?

I propose another idea, being 100% Open minded and free spirited. Why LIMIT ourselves to such rules when all we want is to have fun, and explore waht is possible. In a Guildwars with no more than 10 Guilds, and possibly 40 people competing over 5 Elite Areas we really make one hell of a fuzz over some rules.

Let everyone make the own rules for their records. Just one given by the community: Videos.
I'd love to see a [100% hacked uw record] but also how to get the fastest time using no third party tools, but maybe a timer or a pcons-thingy. Who the hell cares!
I guess we all love seeing a new post in the Elite-Area section, letting us know waht people have achieved. And if you force people into a concept which they don't enjoy, who would still be going for records?


~Nika

[Barath]

"new section for those weirdos who don’t like toolbox, so they finally shut up"

i never said that... i was just talking about a new section, and i said >>> that i WOULD LIKE IT <<< (except me no one else talked about that so i guess you mean me)

Barath’s “fastest times that you can get out of an area by all means necessary”

eehm my???????, i just said that that is how the record rules were over the past years... i never said that i want that for my future records or like it.
i just said: that are the rules under which all records over the past years were done and you can NOT delete those

Restricted records are the records we have all known for years

totally the opposite there were no rules and nothing was restricted for years on gwscr. except the 14men-glitch that zraw used everything was accepted (because a 8men record=a 8men record)

I think we should draw the line where “Clever AI-usage” turns into “Stupidly changing A-Net’s defaults”

how... how in the world you want to draw that line. every person in guildwars got his own opinion on "that is clever AI-usage" and "That is stupidly changing anets defaults"...
if you want to draw that line you have to make polls... many polls...

i can just write it again: the one person wants to get dhuum glitch banned because he thinks "thats stupidly changing anets defaults" the other person thinks "that is clever ai usage, i put him there and he just stands there for the whole fight and does nothing... CLEVER AI-USAGE, YAY " (okay he uses dhuums judgement... and that is even good for you because you can PI it)

I think its totally OK to stuck dhuum (my guild is called dhuum stucker... would make no sense to not like it right) but i just say OTHER PPL MIGHT THINK DIFFERENT

to repeat myself again: you have to make many polls in that case... or you call someone to be the "God of the good and the bad" to dictate what is allowed and what isn`t. and thats not the right way too i guess

[Pepsi]

Now, Barath and I just talked about what I worte last night and I had to realize that some of my references seem to sound differently from what I've meant when writing it. So just a quick reply:

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Pepsi wrote:
"new section for those weirdos who don’t like toolbox, so they finally shut up"


i never said that... i was just talking about a new section, and i said >>> that i WOULD LIKE IT <<< (except me no one else talked about that so i guess you mean me)

Correct, I was not refering to you. Thats what I heard in Has's

If you want to play the game by your ideal of correct behavior, feel free to do so, but don't force others to do the same. If you really want a separate record table, make one for NOT using it.

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Pepsi wrote:
Barath’s “fastest times that you can get out of an area by all means necessary”


eehm my???????, i just said that that is how the record rules were over the past years... i never said that i want that for my future records or like it.
i just said: that are the rules under which all records over the past years were done and you can NOT delete those

You summed this quote of mine “fastest times that you can get out of an area by all means necessary” up perfectly in one of your posts so I just wanted to make a reference to this so I dont have to quote all of that.

---

Pepsi wrote:
Restricted records are the records we have all known for years


totally the opposite there were no rules and nothing was restricted for years on gwscr. except the 14men-glitch that zraw used everything was accepted (because a 8men record=a 8men record)

Typical case of English being too hard for Pepsi:
I wrote "Restricted records are the records we have all known for years, using only the means A-Net gave us." which I wanted to sound like "Restricted records are the records we have done for years now (without hardcore hacking, 14men-Teams, etc), but with the amendment "using only ANets rules" from now on to define this category.

---

Pepsi wrote:
I think we should draw the line where “Clever AI-usage” turns into “Stupidly changing A-Net’s defaults”


how... how in the world you want to draw that line. every person in guildwars got his own opinion on "that is clever AI-usage" and "That is stupidly changing anets defaults"...
if you want to draw that line you have to make polls... many polls...

i can just write it again: the one person wants to get dhuum glitch banned because he thinks "thats stupidly changing anets defaults" the other person thinks "that is clever ai usage, i put him there and he just stands there for the whole fight and does nothing... CLEVER AI-USAGE, YAY " (okay he uses dhuums judgement... and that is even good for you because you can PI it)

I think its totally OK to stuck dhuum (my guild is called dhuum stucker... would make no sense to not like it right) but i just say OTHER PPL MIGHT THINK DIFFERENT

to repeat myself again: you have to make many polls in that case... or you call someone to be the "God of the good and the bad" to dictate what is allowed and what isn`t. and thats not the right way too i guess

That is why I have written the "How to make new rules" part.
We dont forbid "Dhuum-Glitch" but rather "glitching foes" so that we cover not Dhuum but all Bladed Aatxe on pillars, for example.
We dont forbid "stucking Skeles" in Pits, but rather "stuckinging foes", so that people also cannot stuck the spider or coldfires in wastes.
Talking about banning a mechanic and not a specific usage of that mechanic makes life so much easier for all of us.

This would result in like five polls and we have rules for ALL areas - elite areas, as well as dungeons, or whatever people do.

[Karia]

This would result in like five polls and we have rules for ALL areas - elite areas, as well as dungeons, or whatever people do.

We would have to ask several questions when it comes to different using of 3rd party programs (we can control cause of video requirements)

"We call out a new Meta, in which all the old Records go into an Archive and All-Time-Records are still fix. The new meta will be called with a new ruleset where every single known abuse will be questioned and decided by the current userbase of this forum."

- Coindrop(ID-Bug, + any other items to force this bug) manually - yes/ no
- Coindrop(ID-Bug, + any other items to force this bug) automatically yes/no
- AutoPcons - yes/no
- Ghosties used for energy - yes/no
- Ghosties used for unglitching enemies - yes/no
- Ghosties used for HoS - yes/no
- Ghosties used for EoE - yes/no
- Quest-tool (take quests on compass-range) - yes/no
- Quest-tool (take quests even if NPC is in combat) - yes/no
- Emo-Monitor - yes/no
- Hotkeys for items - yes/no
- Hotkeys for canceling e.g. Recall, UA - yes/no
- any use of TexMod - yes/no
- Cam unlocker - yes/no

[Cheese]

I don't even know what this glitch does, but I agree with what Has said. It is in the game, so manually dropping coins shouldn't be banned. You can't ban it only because it doesn't suit you and your values. It's like when vegans try to force others into veganism, it doesn't work like that. My vote probably doesn't account for much, but I say think that manually dropping coins should be allowed.

EDIT: I don't even know what the coin drop glitch does. Someone care to explain? Ty.

[Pepsi]

I don't even know what the coin drop glitch does. Someone care to explain? Ty.

You drop an item and (almost) every foe in your area deactivates, meaning it will not cast any skill, for about 1sec. So you drop an item every second and (almost) everything is only autoattacking. Secondary effect: Foes affected by the bug will follow you a lot further, if not forever.

[Ima Go Farm Now]

I guess we can just take a page from other speedrun communities and separate into tool assisted run(TAS) and non-tool assisted runs.