wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

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K A O S Theory
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wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby K A O S Theory » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:43 pm

/agree with cruz that this should become its own thread, see http://gwscr.fbgmguild.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1917 for where this conversation came from

Basically, change record recording from using /age to using external timers so we can get some decent resolution on runs.

This way:
- People can actually have motivation to optimize a run to the fullest extent rather than just say "I hit sub 5, that run was shit but w/e people wont get sub 4"
- More competition, less dick sucking for holding records (hopefully)

Arguments Against:

You can hack an external timer to just show a different time and cheat!

You can hack gw to make /age show any number you want. Ppl who wanna cheat are gonna cheat. (btw anyone whos gonna get pissed for me posting that, better that than obliviousness that its a possibility already)

Solutions:
- Make people record records and use smth like livesplit? Most do already (record) but I know this has been a topic before so i wont get into it.
- Can develop a closed-src standardized timer for gw runs and shit that can validate runs, im sure a lot of ppl would find this annoying though

Vivec
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby Vivec » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:27 pm

Basically, I agree that a general solution would be great.
My problems with this are the following:
- the only REAL way of determining if foul play was used is to enforce a video of each run. I already do that, as a lot of people do, but there have been lots of discussions over the last months and years and basically there are still people who cannot record. Any closed source timer you would be able to come up with would still be possible to manipulate, I don't have any doubts about that.
- In a lot of records there is a ton of RNG going on. This sucks. It evens out over runs, but on the example of DoA, you get a 17 with a not 100% perfect run, but you can be fine with that as it is very improbable that you get perfect spawns on everything. So what we would achieve with that is relentless grinding for that ONE run because posting anything else would be stupid as anyone with a teeny tiny bit more luck can beat your record by a lousy second. That sucks as there is LOTS of effort put into this. I actually don't know in detail how this is handled in other games and their WR, i'll maybe comment on that at a later time.
- How do we handle old records? Records, where all videos and screens that once were there are long gone? Delete them? How do you round? For current meta records, we could always have a meta reset, but that still does not handle alltime records.

As I can see it, it's far too late to introduce something like that. While the mission/vq record rules were in the making would have been an ideal timing for those records at least, but even then people complained about it. So, tl;dr: I'd support this idea in general, but have doubts that it'll be realized anyway.

€dit: I just had a look at a personal favorite of mine, Super Mario 64 speedruns. Those records can even be beat by a 100th of a second, so that's even harsher. I still feel the ton of RNG especially in bigger/longer areas is a bit of a turndown here as it not only depends on your personal skill as a player but overall group performance and shitton of RNG, which is why I liked the minute based records a lot.

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haskhasin
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby haskhasin » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:24 am

Let's keep the foul play argument out of this topic, timers can be changed just like /age, this would makes no difference at all.

I agree with your argument for more competition, as virtually every record could be challenged, instead of now where a lot of them are unbeatable.

However, I think there are a lot of cons that have not been considered, and some (ever-possible-improvement) even directly correlate to a "positive" argument.

Load times create an unfair advantage.
Why should someone post a record when someone else can do exactly the same thing, load 1 second faster, and steal it with relatively little effort? Take Imperial Sanctum record as an example* since it's fast and has no randomness involved at all. Hudini and Flo raced for a while with Hudini starting the competition. Eventually, Hudini had to give up because of his load time. Even when Hudini was slightly faster by comparing the videos, Flo's amazing load time allowed him to keep the final record. This is extremely frustrating. Minute-based record are not exempt from this (hello urgoz), but they reduce the issue a lot.
Random spawns create a frustrating environment
Randomness is what makes this game fresh and repeatable and keeps us engaged in every run, but it has an heavy effect on the time. Minute-based record typically need heavy improvements to save that one minute, but second-based records can be beaten by a single good spawn, so players are encouraged to keep working on a record until they get every single good spawn which is extremely time consuming at best and unfeasible at worst.
Noone will ever be satisfied or their times
No matter how much effort you put, how smart you are or lucky spawns you get, your time will never be perfect. There will always be something you can do better. So you stop not by reaching a definite goal (e.g. 17min doa, 12min uw, 5min fow, w/e) but by giving up on improving further. I don't like this, I want to to be able to say "I'm happy with this, I'm done" and I'll never be able to say that if I know I can do better.

*I have nothing against Flo and he improved the time with smart new ideas, but it's an excellent example, think as if their tactics have always been exactly the same.

roflmfao
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby roflmfao » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:11 am

Considering that there have been xx:59 records, a slower load could already make the difference between getting a record or not. There will always be some source of unfairness (a player with a consistent 50ms ping would have an advantage over a 150ms player, etc), but I feel that that shouldn't be an argument against adding a real time comparison. As it stands, a lot of elite area records have times that are effectively unbeatable under the current system, while those records aren't actually "perfect" runs. So sure, maybe the occasional player will lose out because of bad load times, but the benefit of having competition again outweighs that by far.

And yes, the effect of RNG on times would increase. Welcome to (almost) every speedgame, ever. And yet people still speedrun other games. Including massively long and frustrating runs where a single unlucky event can kill a run two hours in (Dark Souls 2 All Bosses, get out of my post!). It might make players grind for the "god spawn", and waste a lot of cons/pcons hoping for a decent mountains spawn or similar things. It might even change tactics slightly where players run bars that can only succeed with good spawns. I doubt it will make anyone quit the game. Taking the UW example, someone interested in the UW record would not want to play in the current environment, because an 11 is essentially unobtainable. However, maybe a 12:45 isn't, and would be motivation for players to run attempts again. It might take thousands of runs until you get the time you're looking for, but again, welcome to every speedgame, ever. After all, it still takes skill and good execution to turn a nice spawn into a nice time. I could not beat current T2 times just by getting a good spawn, even if running against a time that had a worse spawn. So a single good spawn is very unlikely to push the weaker player ahead of the better one.

As for satisfaction with times, there just isn't going to be a case where anyone can relax and have their records "safe". Which is dumb anyway, and not really the case in any other speedgame. I remember after getting the 5 min Deep, the mood was very much "Yay, we now have a record that will never be taken away, so no need to ever touch this area again". Which is quite frustrating to me, because I love that place and want more runs. But there will still be people going for a certain time and being happy with it. It just won't be "I want a 12 UW", it might be "I want a 12:50 UW". Is it unbeatable? No. Is it enough to make someone happy? Very possibly. So you can still leave an area and be happy with your time, even if your name won't be eternally stuck to the leaderboards. This seems to be largely about E-Penis in many cases, and might I recommend pills that I have recently received an email about? Apparently they add up to 10cm in just two weeks!

And I do not think it's unreasonable to expect videos. From everyone. OBS is free and has a low enough impact on system performance. Getting a PC that can record is *not* that expensive. No other speedgame I am aware of has this mentality of "keeping tactics secret". Nowhere else have I ever seen a game where people don't want to show strategies because then someone might beat them. The only reason I can think of to do this is that you know your run wasn't good, but you don't want to make a better one. If someone can beat your time using your strategies, that player deserves the record!

Befi
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby Befi » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:33 am

im not agree with roflmfao,

ppl who are not able to do like the fastes tactics, should'nt get anything.
its guild wars and not mario, you can create much more different tactics then in like mostly other games.

anyway, if you want to create second-base records, how to handle the records on alltime table or even the meta records where no screens secons's time exist?
should it be a 17min doa = 17min:00 sec? so the [golt] run is just meta record? golt deserve the tie and zraw the record!
btw i didnt screenshotted at my solo urgoz when i was done, i walked around the pillar to show the chest which took me like 5 seconds.
i bet there are a few more records which could get screened a few seconds faster...

but i agree with the OBS thing, everybody should show at least one video of the record to one admin of gwscr, even if the admins got a
advantage cause he will know the tactics then...
so we can discuss over that theme like months, everybody got their own opinion anyway.

i think we should stay oldschool!

#hacked gaile gray + dwa and gets banned

Nika
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby Nika » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:15 am

I probably will add more later, but how do you measure dungeons?
Count the seconds in a vid? Take a seconds screenshot right when you enter a gate? (aka take screen 10 sec earlier and cheat this way? Only have level 3 count?

roflmfao
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby roflmfao » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:39 am

Make a video, count seconds from when the first loading screen is at 100% to when the chest spawns (maybe also cut out the intermediate loading screens I guess)

So effectively, time each level and add those times up.

Jang
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby Jang » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:59 pm

Being the first to archieve a certain /age time is in my opinion the hardest part because you have to develop tactics and do lots of tests before you can actually run for the record. Thats why 12 min uw took like 8 month to get and 5 mins fow even a year.
The current tie system kinda gives credit for that work while second based records most likely will be held by copy cats because the ones who did the month long developing process will get tired of their areas.
For example in science people give credit to whoever made an invention not to the company which afterwards produces the biggest amount of it.

K A O S Theory
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby K A O S Theory » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:13 pm

@haskhasin

1. We could easily make a timer to auto pause/unpause during load times to eliminate that issue (you know this ;p). However this will cause discrepancies for team times, we could make the timer wait for the entire party to load in to solve that issue and just make it a rule to not move or start your sc until everyone has loaded in? It would take work but this is solvable.

2. I would say that half the fun of runs is RNG like you say, RNG should always be a factor in the runs because it is a part of the game, I dont know if this should really be considered but im not a record runner so

3. You can still strive for goals even if it isnt (and shouldnt be) perfection. As a matter of fact you can now strive for goals with more resolution than by the minute which I feel is more exciting :D every new tactic, even if it only shaves a few seconds, is now useful. However you are always going to be challenged given more resolution, but isnt that a good thing?

@Jang

Why does this matter? Sure they used your tactics but they executed those tactics better than you did therefore they should deserve the record. I don't see how this is unfair? Is there some hidden rule that if you created the tactics that you instantly deserve the record? Given the fact you will be executing them first Im sure you will have the record for some time?

Think of it this way, a record can be beaten, but a discovered tactic is yours forever, is that not enough?

Vivec
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Re: wtb non retarded rounded down minute times

Postby Vivec » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:43 am

The problem is that most other speedrun games are singleplayer. So YOU and YOU ALONE can handle the RNG.
In GW it is dependant on so many factors it isn't even funny.

And that's what Jang, Has and me are talking about. You would have to do literally ten thousands of runs to get the ONE run where all spawns are absolutely perfect (which might or might now happen at all) AND all people in your team execute their roles perfectly. It would be very sad if your record is "stolen" by people who just take your tactics and have one or two better spawns but are overall not really better than you and your team but just had more luck.


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