15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

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James/SynSity
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In-game name: Ranger Goes Sin

15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by James/SynSity »

Marcin/t1 -

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Elvar/t2 -

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Doc/t3 -

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Oskar/t4 -


James/LT -

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Marc/Derv -

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Our t4 had his shadowplay set to record 15 minutes only, so the beginning of his run is cut out. Fortunately there is nothing important or even relevant done in the first 2 minutes or so of gameplay for the t4, and the t3 is by his side for the duration of it so we're hoping that doesn't affect us following the standard ruleset as there would have really been nothing for him to gain by breaking the rules in that time.

We want to thank both the Dans for helping us out with consets and scrolls as well as Hank for helping us test tactics and for giving us some very useful ideas that made things a lot smoother.

14 is definitely possible using these tactics but it would require us to be done at around 9:20 which would probably take months of grinding, so this will probably be it for a while.

Johannes
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Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by Johannes »

GZ on your TAS record.

Doc
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Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by Doc »

I'd like to acknowledge that the 4 europeans of the team sacrificed themselves and ran from ae district all this time

Marcin
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Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by Marcin »

90%of this team removed all their features which would make the record TAS under the current rules and for the hard work and effort by all of us to just be ruled out cos of 1min of running when next to the t2 and 3 the whole time and just pressing EE at the start is just crazy. mistakes happen

Flo
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Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by Flo »

Yeah, this post wont make me any more poplular... but I really have no choice.

I think this screnshot is a pretty good summary:
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(first message is regarding a different record)

Other teams are able to follow the rules (8man UW, 8man DoA, others with a high amount of party members) and if you want a pure or standard record, you ll have to do so too.

It is not anyones responsibility to come up with explanations how in the time that was not captured in a video no punishable action could have been conducted. Neither does the use of something forbidden by the rules have to give the team an advantage in that specific run, just doing something forbidden will disqualify the record from the respective category.

To make this compeltely clear: It is the reponsibility of the running team to provide strong (ideally irrefutable) evidence, that every rule was followed. In the pure and standard categories, this will definitely require full video coverage in almost any case (couple frames/seconds of lag, disconnect or similar can be reasonable excuses).

You can of course have this record approved in the TAS category.

James/SynSity
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Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by James/SynSity »

It's just silly. The rules exist to prove that no one cheated to gain an advantage. But of course

a) There is literally no advantage to be gained. The t4 could pop 16 ghosts, ee on all of them, pop a minipet and ee on it for good measure, all with toolbox minimap open and it would give the team zero competitive advantage whatsoever. Unlike even 8 man uw, the t4 doesn't even have the job of killing nightmares or aiding in the spike. He is quite literally pointless there.

b) You can follow the t4 every step of the way in other POV's and see quite clearly that no rules were broken.

Those are two logically sound reasons to disregard a tiny slip up. There is one completely illogical reason to make a big deal out of it - because you say so and it's your call. These rules exist for a certain reason and that reason isn't to pull them out like a "gotcha", which is all they're being used for here.

It doesn't really matter at the end of the day. Whatever you or anyone else says, this record was done under the standard ruleset and a mentally challenged 1 year old chimpanzee could deduce that by following the extremely simple steps that have been pointed out. Whether you want to approve it or deny it is mostly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Though maybe in the end we'll just do another one because it's not a particularly difficult record, and clearly not one where we're going to come up with some grand scheme to gain a competitive advantage by having Oskar pull some nefarious tactic out of his ass in the first 90 seconds.

Regardless of whether it matters or not, this is not why these rules exist. They're not meant to force players to abide by your personal rules. They exist to make clear to the community that a competitive advantage was not cheated into existence, but when there is remarkably clear and obvious evidence that no competitive advantage was gained, then an exception should be made. This goes beyond being a stickler and well into pettiness.

Sylars
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Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by Sylars »

Ah come on fuck the arbitrary shit rules. The sheer existence of a standard category in itself is absolutely laughable and the features deemed allowed in standard compared to those banned to tas follow no logic whatsoever.

These records are based on trust and if you truly think that not having recorded one minute of video that is utterly meaningless to a run because a feature arbitrarily rules as tas only could have been used for no reason is more ridiculous than claiming F11 isn't needed because someone used the new inventory bags, as if you couldn't have used a texmod for that in 2010 already.

Flo
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Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by Flo »

It is not on me to judge in which part of a video a advantage could possibly have been gained. If I decided this on a case by cases basis, then records would truly be dependent on my personal take on specific runs. Of course zero tolerance policies have their own issues, but at least it is avoiding that.

When we had the lenghty (multiple months long actually) discussion and vote a couple of years back where video requirements were discussied as well, different frameworks could be voted for. You can read up on that in the thread in the general section. It was definitely one idea to have more forgiving video requirements (I believe one was "more than half of the people need to provide a video", so in a party of 8 that would be 5), but that was decided against.

And about the never ending standard-category-drama: Literally nobody is forcing you to do your records in that category. If you personally feel like its an arbitrary (which it definitely is) and useless category that should not exist, it is up to you to just do PURE or TAS records - NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU, so why are you still doing standard records? Genuinely curious about that one...

I have always understood my job as enforcing the rules that were mostly decided and voted for by the community (and yeah, I know, there was a lot of criticism about that process as well) and ensuring an even playing field for everyone. Of course accusations of me being biased or employing double standards will come up, but I can say for myself that I can justify every decision I had to make, both to others and to myself.

Personal attacks and aggression directed at me are to be expected and part of the job, since I am the one enforcing the rules and therefore disappointing people - but I think its important enough to keep doing it. I have never censored any oppinions, even the ones clearly going against good taste, and I dont plan on ever doing so. But please try to differenciate between your personal temporary disappointment/anger because of one record and general long term decision that ensure the integrity and comparability of records.

James/SynSity
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In-game name: Ranger Goes Sin

Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by James/SynSity »

I can appreciate you wanting to abide by the rules to the letter, but at the end of the day the community becomes a little more divided and the record leaderboard becomes a little less representative of reality. It's a shame.

Sylars
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Re: 15 min 6 man UW [Standard]

Post by Sylars »

Flo wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:08 am
And about the never ending standard-category-drama: Literally nobody is forcing you to do your records in that category. If you personally feel like its an arbitrary (which it definitely is) and useless category that should not exist, it is up to you to just do PURE or TAS records - NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU, so why are you still doing standard records? Genuinely curious about that one...
Because it wouldn't wipe the other records off the table when they really should be. Having a category called "standard" that utilizes TOOL ASSISTED stuff more broken than some "TAS" things is just completely fucking dumb. The category in itself makes no sense whatsoever and it is impossible to argue against. The only reason we run "standard" tool assisted runs is because "tool assisted" tool assisted runs would not replace any previous "standard" tool assisted runs.

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