free toolbox? - discussion

Post content relevant to Guild Wars. This includes, but is not limited to: screenshots, guides, tutorials, questions & answers, etc.
Post Reply
haskhasin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 6:03 pm

free toolbox? - discussion

Post by haskhasin »

Hello, I am Has, creator of toolbox.

Something that a lot of people have pointed out in the discussion against toolbox is that its usage is not fair since not everyone have access to it. I believe it helps in both casual runs and records, and I really want the best for all GW players. If it's available to everyone, then the discussion becomes idealistic (3rd party tools yes or no) rather than fairness.

Additionally, I am really tired of selling it, it could not seem an issue, but I constantly get PMs about it, and it becomes annoying after a while, and I really don't need the money anymore.

So I thought I could very well give it for free. Remove the licensing system, leaving the capability to self-update probably. I could even make it open source if there is enough interest... it doesn't change much anyway, and I believe the GW community is mature enough at this point.

On the other side, making it free is awful for whoever bought it already, and I would feel very sorry about that. I can't give the money back of course, and I don't want to make different versions of it like a premium version, it would be horrible to maintain.

So my questions are

1) Should I make toolbox free? I'm asking this especially to people who already purchased it

2) Would that change the community's opinion regarding its usage on records?

Note: attribute hack has already been fixed by a-net, so I'll remove that from toolbox soon. Moreover, GW is a surprisingly safe game, so there aren't many possible "hacks", basically you all know what toolbox offers: timer, pcons pop, hotkeys, ghost target, dialogs.

Sylars
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:32 am
In-game name: Musical Was Dub
Guild: [DS]

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by Sylars »

Well, the licensing part wasn't exactly hard to bypass so it basically IS free. That's not the point, though.
Some people simply refuse to use third party tools - which generally was the idea behind records anyway. Competing with just what the game gives you.

Props to the idea, though. It definitely has its uses for making cons or testing stuff. Or even in casual runs if you're too lazy to pop pcons.
Last edited by Sylars on Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rocks4Free
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:37 am
In-game name: Marlana
Guild: DS

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by Rocks4Free »

Noone needs toolbox, besides you don't how how to play this game :mrgreen:
So this way wouldn't really help to break out of a swamp of cheat .

Pepsi
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:14 am
In-game name: Julius Von Pepsi
Guild: Dhuum Stucker [DS]

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by Pepsi »



I hope people get the sarcasm.

Edit:
The problem with the Toolbox is not that you have/had to pay for it and thus not everyone would buy it.
The core of this discussion is that e.g. the Toolbox gives you advantage over everyone who is playing legitimately.
Making the Toolbox a free opportunity is not equal to giving everyone the same opportunities.

I wrote this in the other Thread a few mins ago, but I think it fits here as well:
The system was originally built on trust. As we can see, most people are not trustworthy anymore, because, in their minds, hacks weirdly seem to be allowed in record-runs. A continuation of that thought is just: who has the better hackers? Who can make a script/hack that would spawn the King instantly, takes the quest and kills Dhuum? If we don't have the Anti-Hack-Rule, people could start making new stuff and eventually there is no skill involved when doing a record-run.
Of course, this is rediculous and unrealistic, but it's exactly the same argument: where do you draw the line between allowed hack and not allowed hack?

The cleanest and easiest "line to draw" is banning the Toolbox. You don't have to worry about what features are active, which are not, what is the Toolbox capable of, etc. Record-runs are (to us) the most important things in GW. Casuals are basically just practice-runs for speed-runs - aside making money in Doa or having some fun. How can we be proud of ourselves if we only achieved these records by using the Toolbox?
I know that the Toolbox does not change the game entirely, but this -again- is the question: where do you draw the line?

The core of this discussion is not the fact that you can see one innocent feature of the Toolbox on screens.
The core of this discussion is the fact that people use programs that possess the power to change the outcome of a run in a way that could not be achieved without - even though, the used features might be minor.

There was a time before any timer, Toolbox or Texmod was released and we could live with that. Why can't we make record-runs even more special and admirable by not using the Toolbox and play legitimately like that?
You seriously can't be telling me that the effort of using cons and p-cons is unreasonably high since we all played without Toolboxes back in the days.
Edit2:
In other words: The discussion is not about the Toolbox itself.
If we allow the Toolbox, we have to allow any other hack as well. Attributes, Speed, Noclips, Quest-Skipping, etc.
Making the Toolbox a free opportunity would probably just make everyone use it in casuals etc. However, this won't change the view on things in record-runs. When you are going for a record, you must be able to do all the things legitimately. If you cannot take a quest from a reaper safely, you're either disqualified for T2 and T4 or you have to practice it - it's as simple as it can get.

haskhasin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 6:03 pm

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by haskhasin »

Okay, first of all thanks for the input, but you said that already. I'm also interested in the opinion of the non-haters.

I didn't want to get into this, but I guess I have to.

Most of you fail to understand what toolbox is about. It's not about hacking or cheating, it's about allowing for a more relaxed gameplay without the hassle of pcons, and to have stuff like an hotkey to cancel recall.

Since ages ago, the general concept in gwscr is that if something is possible without 3rd party tools, then it can be done, and macros are fine. The core feature of toolbox, what me personally and most of the users really use, is the automatic pcons usage. Back when I started working on toolbox, and I had no interaction with the client at all, it was simply a mouse clicking macro. I literally had a macro for clicking stuff in my inventory, based on their position. Same for cancelling recall or ua, or stuff like that.

What i'm trying to say is that using pcons manually is exactly the same thing as doing so with a clicker macro, and using a clicker macro has exactly the same effect as using pcons with toolbox.

About other features:
Attribute hack is no longer possible.
Speed, noclip hacks were never possible in gw, thats GW2 stuff (as far as i know), stop bringing that up, it only shows that you have no idea of what you're talking about.
Quest skipping is not possible in any elite area, so it does not affect gwscr
Fast quest taking and uw teleport is something that has been around since years before toolbox existed. I added them because people were using both toolbox and their own hacks, and I kinda put stuff in toolbox that already was used. Hence, it is possible without toolbox, so I don't see the point.
Targeting ghosts is something that can be really fun. Unfortunately I added it being unaware that it could help UW so much, since it pretty much didn't affect doa and fow, which is what I normally did. (And don't even try bringing fbgm's doa record up or I'll write a paper about that)

Conclusion. PLEASE STOP HATING TOOLBOX. It's some features of it that you are afraid of, but you have to trust people, whether they are using toolbox or not. Someone can be using toolbox without targeting ghosts, or vice-versa someone could be targeting ghosts without using toolbox.

Edit: And I totally agree that stuff like ghosts or quests should not be allowed when they allow things that are not doable without them.

And now please, back on topic, again I'm really interested in the community's opinion about making toolbox free. I fear that people who have paid for it wouldn't be happy.

Edit2: typo
Last edited by haskhasin on Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nika
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:07 am
In-game name: Nika Iz Back
Guild: [SenT]

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by Nika »

I guess a community free toolbox would be an epic thing, and very helpfull to work out a solution.
Maybe we can discuss some parts which probably should be removed, and like i suggested in the other thread, remane the age-pm and maybe add a "screenshot-hotkey" that says in chat that he takes the screen, this way you would have a little proove that you use this toolbox.

Chipotle
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:28 am

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by Chipotle »

What is the point of this post? Toolbox is full of hacks? None of them should be allowed in a record.
What you should be looking at is:
- For starters, port mike's timer to Windows 8
- People been using to worth 'trust' a lot now. We need to reach a point in which the community realises that hacks (read, toolbox) cannot be allowed in records and turn the toolbox off for record runs. To all the people saying 'where is the trust', well it's completely gone at this moment since toolbox is taken for granted. Even though it's accepted by a lot of people doesn't mean it's a good thing as Pepsi already said. It's still against the rules (there's no discussion on this point, if you fail to understand this then you're completely retarted and should uninstall...really sorry). But the community can earn its trust back. Play by the rules, and anyone in your team who doesn't has to be talked with and either let him play by the rules or kick. This is something only the community can do. Then, only then, we can talk about trust again.
- Any team that gets caught using ANY hack, being it gitb hos'ing or toolbox popping or whatever, should be banned from gwscr and any further record attempts. If even one person in the teams used hacks the record still cannot be accepted and the person gets banned. The rest of the team should get a warning since it's their responsibility to do a legitimately record (esle don't post it on here).
Last edited by Chipotle on Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

haskhasin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 6:03 pm

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by haskhasin »

Chipotle wrote:What is the point of this post? Toolbox is full of hacks? None of them should be allowed in a record.
Did you read anything in this thread?

Please constructive talk or gtfo

Chipotle
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:28 am

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by Chipotle »

Ok, here we go Has.
haskhasin wrote:Okay, first of all thanks for the input, but you said that already. I'm also interested in the opinion of the non-haters.

I didn't want to get into this, but I guess I have to.

Most of you fail to understand what toolbox is about. It's not about hacking or cheating, it's about allowing for a more relaxed gameplay without the hassle of pcons, and to have stuff like an hotkey to cancel recall.
- Even though you claim it's not about hacking or cheating well....Toolbox functions are, no matter how you look at it, all hacks and not allowed (thus cheats). Explain me HOW YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THIS!??? Where does it go wrong, on which part do you get lost? There is no way around this as it's factual(!). For casual runs we all seem to have reached a consensus of it being ok. For record runs it's simply not acceptable. They should be done legitimate! That's the whole point of setting a record.
haskhasin wrote: Since ages ago, the general conceptin gwscr is that if something is possible without 3rd party tools, then it can be done, and macros are fine. The core feature of toolbox, what me personally and most of the users really use, is the automatic pcons usage. Back when I started working on toolbox, and I had no interaction with the client at all, it was simply a mouse clicking macro. I literally had a macro for clicking stuff in my inventory, based on their position. Same for cancelling recall or ua, or stuff like that.
The use of macros are a grey zone. When you are talking about autoclick macros then most are considered banworthy. E.g people have been repeatable banned for using autoclick macros on spammable titles. If you're talking macro to switch weaponsets then yes, this is allowed. Moreover, there is a distinction between what toolbox does and what a macro does which is explained in another topic already.
haskhasin wrote:
What i'm trying to say is that using pcons manually is exactly the same thing as doing so with a clicker macro, and using a clicker macro has exactly the same effect as using pcons with toolbox.
^Reach comment above. Toolbox is a piece of third party software which is doing something against the regulations of the game (in case it's still not clear).
haskhasin wrote: About other features:
Attribute hack is no longer possible.
Fast quest taking and uw teleport is something that has been around since years before toolbox existed. I added them because people were using both toolbox and their own hacks, and I kinda put stuff in toolbox that already was used. Hence, it is possible without toolbox, so I don't see the point.
Targeting ghosts is something that can be really fun. Unfortunately I added it being unaware that it could help UW so much, since it pretty much didn't affect doa and fow, which is what I normally did. (And don't even try bringing fbgm's doa record up or I'll write a paper about that)
Great that it has been around for years,truly amazing BUT it doesn't change the fact that it's still against the rules. How can you fail to understand this. It is black on white.
haskhasin wrote:
Conclusion. PLEASE STOP HATING TOOLBOX. It's some features of it that you are afraid of, but you have to trust people, whether they are using toolbox or not. Someone can be using toolbox without targeting ghosts, or vice-versa someone could be targeting ghosts without using toolbox.
Hacks and trust do not go together. Yes it might be shocking to you but toolbox is, once more then...., a collection of hacks.

It seems you're only open for discussion with the pro-toolbox camp as you fail to realise that a record can only be considered a record when it's done legitimately (emphasise on 'legitimately' Toolbox is not legitimately since it's against the rules ...cannot make it any clearer than this. I'm not sure what you're trying to reach with this topic?? Explain and eleborate in detail please. Thank you.
Last edited by Chipotle on Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

haskhasin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 6:03 pm

Re: free toolbox? - discussion

Post by haskhasin »

What I'm saying is that toolbox has different stuff, some of which should be accepted in records, and some of which should not.

popping pcons with toolbox has the same effect as a clicking macro, which is ok even in records.

ghosts, dialogs, etc should NOT be allowed in records.

The fact that toolbox also contains stuff that is not allowed in records does not mean that those things have been used, and its pointless to remove them, since they can easily be used even without toolbox.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 174 guests