Rule update

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Nika
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:07 am
In-game name: Nika Iz Back
Guild: [SenT]

Re: Rule update

Post by Nika »

You are kind of right.
Speedruns are the most impoartant, and trust is needed.

Thing is, the speedclear community addapts to things quite fast, mikes timer became a thing within weeks, and without the windows8 release, everyone still would be using it.
Same for toolbox, great tool, often used, is kind of seen as a part of gw for many (tbh, including me, i love using this tool (buying, pinging templates, age, and so on), and everything that becomes that familiar will sooner or later be used in speedruns, simply because people don't realise that it might fall under the defenition of a hack.
I still have big trust into people, and that they use no hacks such as popping king as you described, but yeah, for that you need a borderline, from what, or where you meassure the thrustwhorthy(ty?) (<- example of nika sucking @ english).

What i said before, you can't prove any hacks, besides the time, or tactic if you can figure them out watching only the endscreen, say otherwise.
Toolbox has the /age-hotkey, and the age-pm-hotkey. Disable age-pm, or choose 2 different hotkeys for these and noone can claim that you used it, especially because the benefit is not expressed in reducing the run age.


Maybe we really should discuss a community-open free "record-box" (maybe even with something like a "screenshot hotkey + speedieboxmessage which says b4 the screen is taken that it is taken), and agree on which things are taken into it.
Like you said, we need a borderline, then why not take in the possibility to take quests even though reapers fight.
I never took part in uw speedies, but i believe that these fails are the most annoying ones, especially considering modern tactics.
I personally am a person very tactic interrested, and i believe that the making of a new split/tactic is the coolest thing you can do in gw, so i'd rather like to see such things establishing, instead of going back to failsave tactics (ik this is not concerning speedies anymore, there it's just more resigns).


Have fun figuring out what i meant, since i didn't put it in any form or order, just wrote our of my mind.

Sylars
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:32 am
In-game name: Musical Was Dub
Guild: [DS]

Re: Rule update

Post by Sylars »

Nika wrote: I personally am a person
No way. ;)

Nika
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:07 am
In-game name: Nika Iz Back
Guild: [SenT]

Re: Rule update

Post by Nika »

Fuck, how did you know? must've been this damn toolbox!

Pepsi
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:14 am
In-game name: Julius Von Pepsi
Guild: Dhuum Stucker [DS]

Re: Rule update

Post by Pepsi »

Nika wrote:You are kind of right.
Speedruns are the most impoartant, and trust is needed.

Thing is, the speedclear community addapts to things quite fast, mikes timer became a thing within weeks, and without the windows8 release, everyone still would be using it.
Same for toolbox, great tool, often used, is kind of seen as a part of gw for many (tbh, including me, i love using this tool (buying, pinging templates, age, and so on), and everything that becomes that familiar will sooner or later be used in speedruns, simply because people don't realise that it might fall under the defenition of a hack.
I still have big trust into people, and that they use no hacks such as popping king as you described, but yeah, for that you need a borderline, from what, or where you meassure the thrustwhorthy(ty?) (<- example of nika sucking @ english).

What i said before, you can't prove any hacks, besides the time, or tactic if you can figure them out watching only the endscreen, say otherwise.
Toolbox has the /age-hotkey, and the age-pm-hotkey. Disable age-pm, or choose 2 different hotkeys for these and noone can claim that you used it, especially because the benefit is not expressed in reducing the run age.


Maybe we really should discuss a community-open free "record-box" (maybe even with something like a "screenshot hotkey + speedieboxmessage which says b4 the screen is taken that it is taken), and agree on which things are taken into it.
Like you said, we need a borderline, then why not take in the possibility to take quests even though reapers fight.
I never took part in uw speedies, but i believe that these fails are the most annoying ones, especially considering modern tactics.
I personally am a person very tactic interrested, and i believe that the making of a new split/tactic is the coolest thing you can do in gw, so i'd rather like to see such things establishing, instead of going back to failsave tactics (ik this is not concerning speedies anymore, there it's just more resigns).


Have fun figuring out what i meant, since i didn't put it in any form or order, just wrote our of my mind.
"Trustworthiness" is the word. :)



I understand everyone who is using the Toolbox. It indeed is a useful tool and the usage does make the game more relaxing, but I have to defend my opinion.

The Speedrun-community indeed does adapt to things really fast - however, this does not mean these things are good or legal.
The timer was (and still is) a huge upgrade to the speedrun-community, but it does not affect the game itself.
The Toolbox, however, does affect the game. Many features of the Toolbox are really helpful and actually should be implemented in the game itself, but others are not: Ghost-Targetting, Reaper-Dialoges, etc. These are not implemented in GW by ANet for a reason (even if not: it's a given you have to deal with) and we shall not bypass these things by hacking the game.

All these features might not be realised as a hack, but at the end of the day that's the reason why we are having this discussion: we are trying to make people realize that is is a hack and should not be used in record-runs.
Again, I wanna clarify: all this is just discussing record-runs. We are not trying to change the community and hate everyone who's using Toolbox (which is why I hate these useless and childish "jokes" in our ally-chat). We need a strict rule set everyone is following and we decided to ban any 3rd-party-programs - long before a timer was used.
The upcoming timers and such started a debate as well and we came to the decision that it is allowed to use the timer, because it does not affect the game. Of course, you know when to /resign which others might not; still, this was not reason enough to ban the timer from record-runs.

The Toolbox does have a HUGE impact on the game. I don't know how expericenced (dont get me wrong, no hate) you are in UW but talking to attacking reapers and HoS'ing of Ghosts has the potential to change pretty much every area.
The quest-take-thing can change the plains-pop with Gaki-Way and also the T2 could change the way he's popping Mnts. The fact that you cannot talk to the reapers in these circumstances is restricting your behavior and thus the tactics you're using.
HoS'Ing off Ghosts has a even greater impact. Doing any jump without having a target behind you or even ee'ing in Pits-Center can save so much time and would make the runs so much safer.
This is not even close to the 0.5secs you're saving by autopopping cons and p-cons.
I know, that's what you want in casuals - in record-runs, though, you need to have the abilities to survive/play/plan without all this.

I know that you can't control people using the Toolbox - and it makes me sick. Back in the days, people were hiding their bots and hacks and were not selling them. If the community would accept the rule not to use any hacks in record-runs, these people would either turn off the Toolbox in record-runs or would be hated and never accepted again when being caught. Sadly, people do accept it - for whatever reason.

Record-runs are so rare nowadays. We had several 14min UWs because of this debate, but before that there were like 20 records in 9 months. Is it really that hard turnng it off when attending a record?

Can you guys remember the 15man (not min) UW by Zraw back then? There was so much hate! It was not even a hack, it was a bug, glitch, whatever and people got really upset. Today we are not even thinking about hacks just because everyone is using it. I cant understand why people do not get upset anymore. The community is spoiled nowadays...

Chipotle
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:28 am

Re: Rule update

Post by Chipotle »

^
This guy deserved a medal! Encourage everyone to read it and counter his arguments if you're pro toolbox.

Jirina
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:17 pm
In-game name: Jirina Capova/Alainasyeva
Guild: The Dawn Of Legends [DaWn]

Re: Rule update

Post by Jirina »

well here's actually the last few words i'll say about this whole nonsense.

earlier in whatever the hell discussion Cookie himself said that autopcons/cons were allowed for use because you can mimic it with a macro or an autoclicker. though i agree with it, these are not my words. does that make Cookie a bad admin because "he allows hacks in record runs"? i don't think so, and don't think many others do either. it's great he's coming to take a stand in this, nobody has done anything like this for gw1 in a long while. him and james are very smart and are handling this whole thing pretty well i would say.

about things in toolbox that SHOULD be allowed to be used and things that shouldn't - /age pm hotkey; yes you cannot do this without toolbox and you can't see a timer. i understand many will say it is a hack (which yes, technically it is), but the thing we need to pay attention to is what record runs are about: speed. hacks are against the game rules, of course, anybody with half a brain knows that. but anet is not doing anything about hacks or bots (which i'm not saying is right), which both are breaking game rules. i'm not saying it's okay to break the rules of the game, but there's no way of stopping it. nobody should ever run bots if the use of "hacks" are so bad, and we all know plenty who make great use of this plant fiber bot for resscrolls and other bots to make their money. how many of you can say you have never ran a bot just once? should we not let you participate to push for a record because you've ran a bot before and it's against the game rules? but, record runs again are about speed (i'm being repetitive i know, it's early morning sorry). as said before anything that can be mimic'd by an autoclicker/macro is allowed. you CAN use "hacks" in record runs without speeding up your run. for example, if you want, you could have the lab reaper pm you "suck my ghostly dick" every time you take restoring quest. is that a hack? yeah, it is. is it affecting the speed of your run? of course not. if someone had recorded their run and you saw that but no other use of hacks, would you call them out for it saying it's an invalid record? if you really think that would affect their run time then you need some sense knocked into you. this is exactly like the /age pm hotkey. is it a hack? does it send evil messages to guild wars so you can see the seconds and age of your run? yeah, it does and it can be considered a hack. how much did it speed up your run? 0%. another thing many use in toolbox is hos/vipers defense off of a ghost in the box. you cannot mimic this with an autoclicker or a macro, and being able to target a ghost itself is a hack. you cannot target a ghost without another program open that tampers with guild wars. SO, again, is it a hack? yes. this is where it is different than a /age pm though. using hos or vipers off a ghost in the box can speed up your run significantly. this itself breaks all the rules, and should NOT be used in record runs. THIS should be the tool we worry about used in record runs. in uw you will maybe save a couple seconds for any role (speeding up your run even a little bit with a tool such as this should NOT be allowed), but in doa from what i have seen is the biggest problem, where you don't have an ally or an enemy so you use hos off something that is not supposed to be there. i'll be honest, i have no fucking idea how doa works, but people who do doa can tell me somewhere that using hos off a ghost at any time in the run can skip something being triggered and can speed up the run. one more thing about toolbox is taking quests while reapers are attacking. the majority of people that use this tool don't even use it while the reaper is attacking, they use it to take as soon as the reaper pops (i've used this before out of laziness in casuals to take escort/restore with one button). this shouldn't be allowed to be used in records either IMO, because skipping two clicks will save you time nonetheless. i can write a tutorial how in mountains or in plains you mash the V button until you get the reaper, press spacebar and click the damn quest two times. it's not hard, just stand at the spot the reaper spawns and gg. things that i think should not to be used : hos off ghost in box, quest taking. things i think should should be allowed to be used : autopcons/cons, /age pm, hotkeys etc. i'm not going to be annoying and say "this gives you an advantage, ban it!", or tell anyone to fuck off because their opinions are different than mine. i'm friends with some of the people that believe toolbox should not be allowed in record runs at all and also friends with the other people who think toolbox saves no time at all, and if you read all of this i'm sort of in the middle and this is all my opinion on the whole thing, i'm not arguing with anyone specifically. sorry for such the long post but damn this is silly lol. hack the game and make every reaper dance like a fucking paragon, but if it's not speeding up your run, who cares.

edit: also another thing is you should not use hacks to save your run aside from speed it up (ee'ing to a ghost is the only thing i can think of which can provide you with a heal if you have no other), but targeting ghosts should not be allowed at all anyways.

Pepsi
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:14 am
In-game name: Julius Von Pepsi
Guild: Dhuum Stucker [DS]

Re: Rule update

Post by Pepsi »

Jirina wrote:earlier in whatever the hell discussion Cookie himself said that autopcons/cons were allowed for use because you can mimic it with a macro or an autoclicker.
To be honest, I cannot understand why we are allowing macros and autoclickers after all. It -to me- is the same thing as the Toolbox or any other hack: it gives an advantage over others. Luckily, people are usually too lazy to make their own scripts and just take what they can find, either because they dont have the knowledge or the patience to do so. Anyway, I cannot change the way people think and play so I won't put too much effort into the macro-discussion as the Toolbox appears to be the bigger issue atm.
Jirina wrote:about things in toolbox that SHOULD be allowed to be used and things that shouldn't - /age pm hotkey; yes you cannot do this without toolbox and you can't see a timer. i understand many will say it is a hack (which yes, technically it is), but the thing we need to pay attention to is what record runs are about: speed. hacks are against the game rules, of course, anybody with half a brain knows that.
The question what should and what should not be allowed is more than a quick "Feature 1? Yes. Feature 2? No. Feature 3? Thats okay as well.".
I understand that the missing timer can be really upsetting for the Win8-Users among us but that does not justify the usage of the Toolbox - in record-runs. I dont think people even attend Speedruns without being on TS and it's not a big deal to ask for the exact time. This is, by the way, the way Marc is getting time-information atm. There is no need to use the Toolbox.
Noone can be telling me that he uses the Toolbox solely for the timer-function - it's simply more useful than that. Even if your initial incent was the timer, the tool does deliver more useful functions you can access immediatly.
Jirina wrote:how many of you can say you have never ran a bot just once? should we not let you participate to push for a record because you've ran a bot before and it's against the game rules?
This is the core why people are trying to ban the Toolbox: using it does give you the opportunity to use strong functions (read: hacks) whithout bothereing about their acquisition.
People Toolbox'ing dont necessarily use hacks - people hacking dont necessarily use Toolbox. However, people using toolbox have the opportunity to hack and you cannot bring evidence that they did - or did not.
You argue you didnt hack and people should bring evidence that you did? Now I want evidence that you did not.
Somehow, I like the murder-metaphor: A screen with an active Toolbox-function is like standing over a dead body with a knife in your hand: you dont necessarily murdered that guy - but the chance you did is really high. That being said, we only have reason to judge you for this murder only; not ones you might have commited in the past.
Jirina wrote:as said before anything that can be mimic'd by an autoclicker/macro is allowed. you CAN use "hacks" in record runs without speeding up your run. for example, if you want, you could have the lab reaper pm you "suck my ghostly dick" every time you take restoring quest. is that a hack? yeah, it is. is it affecting the speed of your run? of course not. if someone had recorded their run and you saw that but no other use of hacks, would you call them out for it saying it's an invalid record? if you really think that would affect their run time then you need some sense knocked into you. this is exactly like the /age pm hotkey. is it a hack? does it send evil messages to guild wars so you can see the seconds and age of your run? yeah, it does and it can be considered a hack. how much did it speed up your run? 0%. another thing many use in toolbox is hos/vipers defense off of a ghost in the box. you cannot mimic this with an autoclicker or a macro, and being able to target a ghost itself is a hack. you cannot target a ghost without another program open that tampers with guild wars. SO, again, is it a hack? yes. this is where it is different than a /age pm though.
The Toolbox is a collection of hacks, scripts, macros or whatever it may be called (Yes, I dont have a single idea of all this crap, but im confident I understood the basics so dont pin me down on these trivial things.).
We are only arguing about the Toolbox - any hack was banned from records all the time. The Toolbox simply collects them and people argue they are legal. It's like saying that you must not shoot people and you must not stab them, but if you have a rifle with a bayonet, you can use it to kill people.
Jirina wrote:using hos or vipers off a ghost in the box can speed up your run significantly. this itself breaks all the rules, and should NOT be used in record runs. THIS should be the tool we worry about used in record runs. in uw you will maybe save a couple seconds for any role (speeding up your run even a little bit with a tool such as this should NOT be allowed), but in doa from what i have seen is the biggest problem, where you don't have an ally or an enemy so you use hos off something that is not supposed to be there. i'll be honest, i have no fucking idea how doa works, but people who do doa can tell me somewhere that using hos off a ghost at any time in the run can skip something being triggered and can speed up the run.
Again, this one hack is not the only problem. The fact that you access all the useful hacks and macros (or whatever it may be) with the Toolbox is the problem. I dont think people would use all the hacks they are using nowadays if there wasnt the collection of them in the Toolbox. I am thankful that we have it, but that does not equal we should use it in record-runs.
Jirina wrote:the majority of people that use this tool don't even use it while the reaper is attacking, they use it to take as soon as the reaper pops (i've used this before out of laziness in casuals to take escort/restore with one button). this shouldn't be allowed to be used in records either IMO, because skipping two clicks will save you time nonetheless.
Even if it is just laziness (which would be pathetic in records, make some effort to achieve it), you have the ability to abuse it when you fail the quest-take in Mnts or Plains. Other teams would have to /resign which gives you a significant advantage. I wrote that somewhere else, but I dont mind repeating the arguments: if you are not able to do an action that is required in a record-run, you are obligated to learn it or not attend this position. Hacking the game to compensate your own disability is not the way to go.
Jirina wrote:things i think should should be allowed to be used : autopcons/cons, /age pm, hotkeys etc. i'm not going to be annoying and say "this gives you an advantage, ban it!", or tell anyone to fuck off because their opinions are different than mine.
I - we appreciate the effort to write the text and your opinion, but this cannot be controlled with the current Toolbox-Version. This is why I've tried to come up (prolly not as the 1st person) with the Speedrun-Toolbox. A different Version of the Toolbox that contains only the functions we all can agree on. The /age-pm does not state "{GWToolbox}: 00.13.59" but e.g. "{Record-Toolbox}:00.13.59". I've seen someone posting a screen of a different pm-text in AC, so, apparently, you can manipulate the current Toolbox, but we wil always have a rest-risk.


I dont know what else I could say, because the arguments are really simple.

Chipotle
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:28 am

Re: Rule update

Post by Chipotle »

Jirina wrote:well here's actually the last few words i'll say about this whole nonsense.

earlier in whatever the hell discussion Cookie himself said that autopcons/cons were allowed for use because you can mimic it with a macro or an autoclicker. though i agree with it, these are not my words. does that make Cookie a bad admin because "he allows hacks in record runs"? i don't think so, and don't think many others do either. it's great he's coming to take a stand in this, nobody has done anything like this for gw1 in a long while. him and james are very smart and are handling this whole thing pretty well i would say.
The problem is that the community is spoiled and takes cheating for granted. I don't give a flying fuck what Cookie or some other mod says, it's still against the rules of game. End of discussion on that point.

Cookie
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:53 am
In-game name: Cookie of funk
Guild: Death And Taxes [DnT]

Re: Rule update

Post by Cookie »

What's stopping people from just closing x hack before the run is over? My problem with this whole "BAN EVERYTHING" idea is that the only way to enforce it is to have every single split record a PoV, and thats just not going to happen.

The current system and my proposal is the optimum. It bans any game breaking hacks and allows for people to keep their quality of life stuff on. The reason I say macros are ok is because that is the precedent set from years back. There was never a precedent set about allowing hacking, this entire discussion has occured because apparently there had been issues with specific cases.

The reason why I say using Toolbox to pop pcons is ok, is that it just saves people the effort of then going and making an autoclick macro. People have autoclicked their pcons for years, it's not something that I think needs to be slammed down on.

As for Chipotle, we have never done records by 'the rules of the game', nor do I imagine anyone wants to. The community makes rules to do records by, not ANet.

Chipotle
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:28 am

Re: Rule update

Post by Chipotle »

You're absolutely right Cookie. BUT weren't you the one to use the sentence ''where is the trust''? Much like the new mod writing a paper on how to avoid hacks being shown and getting approved with the most rediculous ideas I seriously wonder what the community is doing? Might as well take gw1 gwscr down then. Let's use the principle of trust as both of you mods proudly trowing around. I've said it at another post, it's the responsibility of the community to preserve honesty and fair play in this game as it's the only possible way. I'll repeat my post once more.

What you should be looking at is:
- For starters, port mike's timer to Windows 8
- People been using to worth 'trust' a lot now. We need to reach a point in which the community realises that hacks (this also includes toolbox and all its functionalities) cannot be allowed in records and turn the toolbox off for record runs. To all the people saying 'where is the trust', well it's completely gone at this moment since toolbox is taken for granted. Even though it's accepted by a lot of people doesn't mean it's a good thing and should be allowed as Pepsi already said. It's still against the rules (there's no discussion on this point, if you fail to understand this then you're completely retarted and should uninstall...really sorry). But the community can earn its trust back. Play by the rules, coordinate this to your team and anyone in theteam who doesn't stop using hacks should be talked to and either make him play by the rules or kick him from the team. This is something only the community can do. Then, only then, we can talk about 'trust' again.
- Any team that gets caught using ANY hack, being it gitb hos'ing or toolbox popping or whatever, should be banned from gwscr and any further record attempts. If even one person in the teams used hacks the record still cannot be accepted and the person gets banned. The rest of the team should get a warning since it's their responsibility to do a legitimately record (esle don't post it on here).

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