Rule update

[Charlo]

Still you shouldn't be too extreme over this, everyone may be able to record a vid, but not to upload.
I tried to upload a ~20sec vid once, 2hours later i was done. I am not the greatest with vids, but if i do the math this basically would force me into days of uploading for a record, which i see as impossible.
Yeah.

Raw, uncompressed footage is about 2GB per minute in 1080p. After a quick conversion with handbrake it goes down to ~5-10mb.

Assuming the slowest connection available in non third-world countries, which is 64kbit/mobile. It takes 1562,5*8 = 12500 seconds to upload a 20 minute video. Thats about 202 minutes, so a bit less than 3 and a half hour.
The average connection is somewhat between 0,5-5mbit/s upload per second. That would take 160-1600 seconds, 3-27 minutes.

Add up conversion time, which goes from 20fps to 600fps in speed, a 20 minutes video recorded in 30fps takes about 1-30 minutes.

High quality rendering obviously takes longer, but for non-premium quality the longest time an upload could take would be 5 hours. WIth about 1 minute of user input.

My connection is like 1MB/sec but youtube doesn't agree, i upload a 1min video in like 2 hours, so it doesn't depends only on that.
BTW, idk why youtube hates me so hard, it seems like i'm the only one, i'm not lagging when i'm uploading a video, i mean not at all. I can still DL stuff pretty fast, it doesn't change the time to upload (around 1500min for a 15min video).

Anyway, the 14min Uw will be done w/o toolbox, dw about it.

EDIT : If i understand, James, you want ppl to record the record to get it approved ? GL, I know many ppl who will never show their tactics or record every single run before the good one just because 4 or 5 guys are crying about an autopcons poper.

[Double Derv Dare]

EDIT : If i understand, James, you want ppl to record the record to get it approved ? GL, I know many ppl who will never show their tactics or record every single run before the good one just because 4 or 5 guys are crying about an autopcons poper.

You misunderstand me. Let me clarify.

Approval shall not require a video. That is a hefty requirement on some people. GW 1 forces a team to exist in an instance or town together, and you cannot leave and then rejoin an instance, unlike GW 2. In GW 2 you need a recording to validate a complete lack of foul play. Until such time as someone comes up with a way to monumentally fuck something up by slow loading, there is no point in demanding a video recording of every run. (The only possible benefits to slow loading that I am aware of died with the res scroll nerf)

All that I am saying is that recording is not as difficult as some people believe it is, and that even a very low quality video is the easiest way to prove your run is legitimate should questions arrive.

[Nika]

I forgot where you mentioned it, but having a small guide with the best free recording tools and programs to make these vids as little as possible, so i know what you guys are using and can compare to the mistakes i did or not did.

[Sylars]

Still you shouldn't be too extreme over this, everyone may be able to record a vid, but not to upload.
I tried to upload a ~20sec vid once, 2hours later i was done. I am not the greatest with vids, but if i do the math this basically would force me into days of uploading for a record, which i see as impossible.
Yeah.

Raw, uncompressed footage is about 2GB per minute in 1080p. After a quick conversion with handbrake it goes down to ~5-10mb.

Assuming the slowest connection available in non third-world countries, which is 64kbit/mobile. It takes 1562,5*8 = 12500 seconds to upload a 20 minute video. Thats about 202 minutes, so a bit less than 3 and a half hour.
The average connection is somewhat between 0,5-5mbit/s upload per second. That would take 160-1600 seconds, 3-27 minutes.

Add up conversion time, which goes from 20fps to 600fps in speed, a 20 minutes video recorded in 30fps takes about 1-30 minutes.

High quality rendering obviously takes longer, but for non-premium quality the longest time an upload could take would be 5 hours. WIth about 1 minute of user input.

My connection is like 1MB/sec but youtube doesn't agree, i upload a 1min video in like 2 hours, so it doesn't depends only on that.
BTW, idk why youtube hates me so hard, it seems like i'm the only one, i'm not lagging when i'm uploading a video, i mean not at all. I can still DL stuff pretty fast, it doesn't change the time to upload (around 1500min for a 15min video).

Anyway, the 14min Uw will be done w/o toolbox, dw about it.

EDIT : If i understand, James, you want ppl to record the record to get it approved ? GL, I know many ppl who will never show their tactics or record every single run before the good one just because 4 or 5 guys are crying about an autopcons poper.

A one minute video that you didn't render usually has a size of some GByte. No wonder it takes a while to upload, I mean it would even take me. 2GB is roughly 16.000 Mbit.
If your upload speed is 1Mbps, that means it would take you 266 minutes, which is almost 4 and a half hour.

As for getting your stuff smaller, you can use x.264 (takes some time to render) or xvid codec in virtualdub. The quality is still great (tbh, I don't see differences) but the filesize shrinks and the rendering goes fast. If that's too complicated for you (plenty of videos on youtube, both in english and german), you can still use somewhat like easy h.264. If you want files even smaller, you can even go as far as reducing framerate a bit. 24 fps still isn't considered as laggy. 15 would be, but it's better than no video at all, huh?

[Pepsi]

Heya, guys!

Most of you probably either hate or don’t know me; however, I feel obligated to join the discussion. I haven’t read half of the things people posted because all this is too ridiculous to me. Anyway, I think we’ve lost track of what originally was supposed to be clarified.

People said Toolbox is a handy program to make your lives easier and more comfortable – which I won’t disagree on. I use it as well from time to time to tele Lab -> Lab or for easier Material-Purchase. That’s exactly what it is built for. Aside that, I think it’s useless, although I can understand why people are using it.

Anyways, this discussion right here is not about the general use of Toolbox. It’s about the usage in Record-Runs. I don’t know FoW or Doa at all, but I’ve been part of enough UW Speedruns that I can tell that most records won’t be achieved by accident. You are building tactics, getting a team, practice the things and then go for the record with lots /resigns for the only purpose to beat a given time. Is it really that hard to shut down the toolbox for these runs?
This thread is (or at least “should be”) solely discussing the use of 3rd Party-Programs in exactly these runs. I don’t care about the usage in casuals, testruns or whatever you’re doing. For record-runs, however, we need a bottom line to give every player the same chances. Also, any kind of hack should be disqualified. I can’t understand why people are even arguing about it. Automatically using Mobstoppers, Rezscrolls, Cons and PCons is useless and borderline retarded behavior. For records, we need a strict rule set everyone is using. Hacking the shit out of GW must not be our common ground.

Why can’t we just ban all 3rd-Party-Programs from speedruns? Is it really about comfort? In Speedruns? The amount of speedruns everyone does is that limited that I don’t think it will hurt your overall game-experience because you are legitimately popping sweets and cons for these few hours. Also, if you cannot achieve a record because you don’t use toolbox, you should overthink your personal level of skill.
I understand that you need cons and sweets in FoW and Doa immediately so that the Toolbox can really help you out and probably save a few seconds. Anyways, it’s only a tiny time loss which everyone will be restricted by – not just you.

I don’t care if it’s a hack, macro, autoclicker or script. Give me one good reason why people should use game-changing 3rd-Party-Programs in record-runs while trading off the ability to play legitimately.
I understand the usage of timers and texmods.
The timer is a tool to give an exact idea how fast you are and if you are in time for a record. However, it’s not changing the game at all. You cannot target things you shouldn’t be able to, you are not able to take quests from attacking reaper, you don’t use sweets automatically, etc. Everything the timer provides can be displayed by a mobile phone with a timer next to your screen as well. It is not affecting the game at all.
The same way do texmods not affect the game. You’re simply changing the interface in a way to make it look better. Arguably, you get the Spirit-Range – but let’s be honest: we all know where to place EoEs and Winnowings; we don’t need the Spirit-Range.

Let me clarify one thing: I understand that Sweets and Cons could be considered “permanently active” and thus should be permanently and automatically in effect – e.g. by toolbox. However, the toolbox provides more things than that: targeting a ghost, attribute-hack, auto-mobstoppers, etc. These things make the toolbox invalid for record runs.
If someone would write a new “Speedrun-Toolbox”, giving abilities that are acceptable in recordruns while not providing these hack-things; people might –as a compromise- accept it. (This is just an idea after a few beers and not enough sleep; you'll get the idea, though.)
I do know what i wrote above, but we will never get to an end of this discussion without a compromise.

Pepsi

[Sylars]

Inb4 just mad cause no 14.

[Chipotle]

Heya, guys!

Most of you probably either hate or don’t know me; however, I feel obligated to join the discussion. I haven’t read half of the things people posted because all this is too ridiculous to me. Anyway, I think we’ve lost track of what originally was supposed to be clarified.

People said Toolbox is a handy program to make your lives easier and more comfortable – which I won’t disagree on. I use it as well from time to time to tele Lab -> Lab or for easier Material-Purchase. That’s exactly what it is built for. Aside that, I think it’s useless, although I can understand why people are using it.

Anyways, this discussion right here is not about the general use of Toolbox. It’s about the usage in Record-Runs. I don’t know FoW or Doa at all, but I’ve been part of enough UW Speedruns that I can tell that most records won’t be achieved by accident. You are building tactics, getting a team, practice the things and then go for the record with lots /resigns for the only purpose to beat a given time. Is it really that hard to shut down the toolbox for these runs?
This thread is (or at least “should be”) solely discussing the use of 3rd Party-Programs in exactly these runs. I don’t care about the usage in casuals, testruns or whatever you’re doing. For record-runs, however, we need a bottom line to give every player the same chances. Also, any kind of hack should be disqualified. I can’t understand why people are even arguing about it. Automatically using Mobstoppers, Rezscrolls, Cons and PCons is useless and borderline retarded behavior. For records, we need a strict rule set everyone is using. Hacking the shit out of GW must not be our common ground.

Why can’t we just ban all 3rd-Party-Programs from speedruns? Is it really about comfort? In Speedruns? The amount of speedruns everyone does is that limited that I don’t think it will hurt your overall game-experience because you are legitimately popping sweets and cons for these few hours. Also, if you cannot achieve a record because you don’t use toolbox, you should overthink your personal level of skill.
I understand that you need cons and sweets in FoW and Doa immediately so that the Toolbox can really help you out and probably save a few seconds. Anyways, it’s only a tiny time loss which everyone will be restricted by – not just you.

I don’t care if it’s a hack, macro, autoclicker or script. Give me one good reason why people should use game-changing 3rd-Party-Programs in record-runs while trading off the ability to play legitimately.
I understand the usage of timers and texmods.
The timer is a tool to give an exact idea how fast you are and if you are in time for a record. However, it’s not changing the game at all. You cannot target things you shouldn’t be able to, you are not able to take quests from attacking reaper, you don’t use sweets automatically, etc. Everything the timer provides can be displayed by a mobile phone with a timer next to your screen as well. It is not affecting the game at all.
The same way do texmods not affect the game. You’re simply changing the interface in a way to make it look better. Arguably, you get the Spirit-Range – but let’s be honest: we all know where to place EoEs and Winnowings; we don’t need the Spirit-Range.

Let me clarify one thing: I understand that Sweets and Cons could be considered “permanently active” and thus should be permanently and automatically in effect – e.g. by toolbox. However, the toolbox provides more things than that: targeting a ghost, attribute-hack, auto-mobstoppers, etc. These things make the toolbox invalid for record runs.
If someone would write a new “Speedrun-Toolbox”, giving abilities that are acceptable in recordruns while not providing these hack-things; people might –as a compromise- accept it. (This is just an idea after a few beers and not enough sleep; you'll get the idea, though.)
I do know what i wrote above, but we will never get to an end of this discussion without a compromise.

Pepsi

Nothing more to add. Why is this so hard to grasp? Thank you for this Pepsi.

[Nika]

The compromise will be a requirement to record videos, which is bullshit.
You can't controll which functions were used, but neither can ban toolbox for showing some age.
Well basically the whole argument is about the /age thing - because it's the only in screen visible effect of the toolbox.

This basically is the core of this discussion.
And plenty already said, that if someone released a Win-8 able Timer that is displayed in fullscreen + screenshot like the zraw timer, we would have a compromise. (still can't proove if toolbox is used, but here you simply must trust people).

[Daniel]

if someone released a Win-8 able Timer that is displayed in fullscreen + screenshot like the zraw timer

yes please

[Pepsi]

The compromise will be a requirement to record videos, which is bullshit.
You can't controll which functions were used, but neither can ban toolbox for showing some age.
Well basically the whole argument is about the /age thing - because it's the only in screen visible effect of the toolbox.

This basically is the core of this discussion.
And plenty already said, that if someone released a Win-8 able Timer that is displayed in fullscreen + screenshot like the zraw timer, we would have a compromise. (still can't proove if toolbox is used, but here you simply must trust people).

Didn't I just bring up a new possibility that would make videos unnecessary?
Of course, you can't control who is doing what - we wouldn't have to if people still had the same mentality as a few years ago - but thats a different topic.

How can we trust a team (By the way, I'm not saying all of them were hacking and I hate them for doing so.) that has done a 14min with not allowed Toolbox-usage in future records? Especially when you can clearly see that they used the Toolbox on the screens! Furthermore, the T1-video proves that at least one member did use the Toolbox for more than just "showing some age".

Apparently, you did not understand what this discussion is about.
The system was originally built on trust. As we can see, most people are not trustworthy anymore, because, in their minds, hacks weirdly seem to be allowed in record-runs. A continuation of that thought is just: who has the better hackers? Who can make a script/hack that would spawn the King instantly, takes the quest and kills Dhuum? If we don't have the Anti-Hack-Rule, people could start making new stuff and eventually there is no skill involved when doing a record-run.
Of course, this is rediculous and unrealistic, but it's exactly the same argument: where do you draw the line between allowed hack and not allowed hack?

The cleanest and easiest "line to draw" is banning the Toolbox. You don't have to worry about what features are active, which are not, what is the Toolbox capable of, etc. Record-runs are (to us) the most important things in GW. Casuals are basically just practice-runs for speed-runs - aside making money in Doa or having some fun. How can we be proud of ourselves if we only achieved these records by using the Toolbox?
I know that the Toolbox does not change the game entirely, but this -again- is the question: where do you draw the line?

The core of this discussion is not the fact that you can see one innocent feature of the Toolbox on screens.
The core of this discussion is the fact that people use programs that possess the power to change the outcome of a run in a way that could not be achieved without - even though, the used features might be minor.

There was a time before any timer, Toolbox or Texmod was released and we could live with that. Why can't we make record-runs even more special and admirable by not using the Toolbox and play legitimately like that?
You seriously can't be telling me that the effort of using cons and p-cons is unreasonably high since we all played without Toolboxes back in the days.

Yes, a working timer for Win8 would be a big step in terms of speed-runs. However, people would not stop using Toolbox just because they have another working timer then. People sadly don't use the Toolbox solely for the timer-function; thus you cant assure that this would fix the hacking-problems we are discussing here.