Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

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What to do

Merge "Standard and TAS"
12
63%
Rename categories and change rules
2
11%
Leave everything as is
5
26%
 
Total votes: 19

Cruz
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by Cruz »

That's stupid.

Kaspaar
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by Kaspaar »

You can't keep a category based on purely arbitrary random decisions. - Sylars
Of course you can, and these are not arbitrary decisions. The whole point of separating Standard from TAS was to separate quality of life features most players enjoy playing with from an indiscriminate 3rd party tool free for all. What those 3rd party QOL features are was a subject of long debate which arrived at what we now call Standard.

I won't be posting any runs here anymore if this goes through. I will not play with the cancer default ui just for the sake of not being forced into setting up movement macros and dialog/targeting hotkeys to be on an even footing with others within the ruleset.

Kaspaar
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by Kaspaar »

I can't imagine how you process the legal system of real life. Things like murder in the 1st or 2nd degree must be completely incomprehensible to you.

It's all murder after all, why have all these arbitrary categories?

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another niqqer
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by another niqqer »

Sylars wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:57 pm
So what are the features against your taste? Targeting ghosts and sending dialogues to unresponsive reapers are amongst the only things impossible to do without cheating in the unmodified game, hence the second poll option of "changing categories". Features as they currently are make no sense because some tas features aren't any "worse" than "standard" features. You can't keep a category based on purely arbitrary random decisions.
in every other game it would be under TAS i dont why you keep saying "Cheating"

Misty
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by Misty »

Kaspaar wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:08 pm
The whole point of separating Standard from TAS was to separate quality of life features most players enjoy playing with from an indiscriminate 3rd party tool free for all. What those 3rd party QOL features are was a subject of long debate which arrived at what we now call Standard.
This is a somewhat compelling point, but it's not quite accurate to say that the chosen standard rules are a result of long debate. Those debates ultimately broke down, and we resorted to a messy vote that gave an unsatisfactory compromise.
Kaspaar wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:55 am
I refuse to submit records in a category where everything is allowed simply because I don't want to play with the horrendous default interface.
Consider yourself privileged that your preferred QoL feature is allowed within standard rules. I don't want to play with the horrendous default compass, so I either do TAS records, or if my team demands it, I suck it up and play without the TB minimap. I wouldn't mind not using it for targeting or movement or having markers or any of that stuff, but enough people decided that just having the minimap open counts as cheating. Meanwhile autocons and hotkeys are allowed.
If you truly believe the standard rules make sense, I guess your opinion won't change. Please don't threaten to not submit any more records though. Just play the way you want to, with the features you enjoy. Even if someone eventually beats your times with rupt bots and hacks (and this seems extremely unlikely), nobody is going to forget your solo UW achievements, regardless of what the record table says.
Last edited by Misty on Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

Sylars
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by Sylars »

another niqqer wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:40 pm
Sylars wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:57 pm
So what are the features against your taste? Targeting ghosts and sending dialogues to unresponsive reapers are amongst the only things impossible to do without cheating in the unmodified game, hence the second poll option of "changing categories". Features as they currently are make no sense because some tas features aren't any "worse" than "standard" features. You can't keep a category based on purely arbitrary random decisions.
in every other game it would be under TAS i dont why you keep saying "Cheating"
Wrong, in absolutely every other game these things are forbidden entirely. Tool Assistance allows you to optimize human inputs frame by frame and displays you every information about the game you could possibly want, it does not allow you to change the games memory. Things you cannot achieve with just regular controller/kbm input are banned.

Sylars
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by Sylars »

Kaspaar wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:08 pm
Of course you can, and these are not arbitrary decisions. The whole point of separating Standard from TAS was to separate quality of life features most players enjoy playing with from an indiscriminate 3rd party tool free for all. What those 3rd party QOL features are was a subject of long debate which arrived at what we now call Standard.
You haven't answered my question about what features are "bad" to you and for what reasons. Minimap targeting is significantly less bad than auto pcons or hotkeys. It's ruled to "TAS" for absolutely no logical reason. I don't know what retards voted for such inconsequent and illogical rules but it sure as hell wasn't coming from any people who follow speedrun scenes. It sounds like you want to keep the tier as it is because it allows e xactly the features you use and gives you a sense of achievement over players using different features that are put in a less restrictive tier for no logical reason.

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another niqqer
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by another niqqer »

Sylars wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:37 am
another niqqer wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:40 pm
Sylars wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:57 pm
So what are the features against your taste? Targeting ghosts and sending dialogues to unresponsive reapers are amongst the only things impossible to do without cheating in the unmodified game, hence the second poll option of "changing categories". Features as they currently are make no sense because some tas features aren't any "worse" than "standard" features. You can't keep a category based on purely arbitrary random decisions.
in every other game it would be under TAS i dont why you keep saying "Cheating"
Wrong, in absolutely every other game these things are forbidden entirely. Tool Assistance allows you to optimize human inputs frame by frame and displays you every information about the game you could possibly want, it does not allow you to change the games memory. Things you cannot achieve with just regular controller/kbm input are banned.
thats just wrong

Sylars
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by Sylars »

That is the case for virtually every single popular game on speedrun.com. I don't know what more to tell you but is exactly the case.

https://www.speedrun.com/pkmnredblue
https://www.speedrun.com/sm64
https://www.speedrun.com/oot

Scroll down to the category and then click on rules. Especially for offline games this would be extremely pointless as you could beat every game in 0.00 seconds.

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another niqqer
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Re: Reworking record categories (pure, standard, tas)

Post by another niqqer »

Sylars wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:17 am
That is the case for virtually every single popular game on speedrun.com. I don't know what more to tell you but is exactly the case.

https://www.speedrun.com/pkmnredblue
https://www.speedrun.com/sm64
https://www.speedrun.com/oot

Scroll down to the category and then click on rules. Especially for offline games this would be extremely pointless as you could beat every game in 0.00 seconds.
oh well theres your problem you're looking at popular games with actual rulesets which guild wars is not :)

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