Step 1: What is a "valid vote"?

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Flo
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:01 pm

@Befi
Thats EXACTLY how the current ruleset works. This also happens to be my own opinion, but people claim that it is not representative of the comminities opinion. Only way to prove them wrong is by having a vote.

Records that include TB minimap will just be put on hold until we ve figured out how to proceed.

@Misty
Then I fail to see what the system proposed by you does instead of shifting uncertainty from the mods to another group of people thats just as small and not representative. Maybe others see an upside here and I wont tell them they re wrong, its their opinion after all.

_________________________________________________________

I ld say the next few steps are
1. Wait a few more days for input in this thread
2. Set up a thread with some really basic points regarding a new decision making system for the rules (for example like a vote or that what Misty proposed)
3. See if we can get a consensus on the topic mentioned above
4. Determine how a vote would look like (anonymous? everyone can vote?)
5. Set up a vote if the current system should be kept (pure/standard/tas)
5.1 If 5 ends with "Yes (the system should be kept)" the case is settled and we ve established a voting system for upcoming problems
5.2 If 5 ends with "No (the system shouldnt be kept)" there has to be another vote to determine what is actually going to be implemented

I think this whole process will take us about ~4-6 weeks.

Disclaimer: The described approach (1-5.2) is NOT a decision, its an (in my eyes) reasonable approach to this subject without touching contentual stuff in an early stage (only 5. is acutal contentual and thats quite far down the line). If you agree or disagree, I ld like to hear your opinion - especially from the other mods if they would support the mentioned approach.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby haskhasin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:16 pm

@Befi
It's not that easy, because the legacy rule-set was only against things that are not possible in game at all ("Tools that enable you to do actions which can not be done manually (teleport hack, target boo, quests, ...) are not permitted"). Everything else was allowed and I actually didn't expect the current discussion about the minimap to happen. Only since the id-bug the community started introducing new, more strict rules, to the point where many now argue that targeting hotkeys on valid targets are not allowed. A few years ago that would have been silly. I guess this is in part due to how toolbox affected the way people play and showed everybody how much is possible within those boundaries. We simply need to agree on a new, clearer boundary on what's allowed and what isn't.

@Misty
We won't go anywhere with making rules according to principles. That's how the current system is set up, and it's clearly open to very different interpretations. We are a community and we need to vote on what we can't agree on. Whoever loses needs to adapt or post in pure/tas.

@Flo
I would skip the step on pure/tas. Rules on those are well defined, and I don't see any reasons to remove them. The issue right now is the standard rule-set, and we should fix that as soon as possible.
I think the best is to create a questionare, asking if a list of things should be allowed or not, including both minimap+toolbox stuff and others.

The main issue right now is how to implement this to let everyone vote while stopping vote manipulation.

All I can think of, is creating a google form where players have to write their guild+ign. Results can be visible only to mods, so votes will be anonymous to everyone except mods, and we can verify players in case of suspicious entries.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Misty » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:45 pm

Flo wrote:@Misty
Then I fail to see what the system proposed by you does instead of shifting uncertainty from the mods to another group of people thats just as small and not representative.
The difference is that mods don't get to just VOTE... it's not a popularity contest. They have to put forth arguments and convince the other mods of what's reasonable.
Flo wrote:5.2 If 5 ends with "No (the system shouldnt be kept)" there has to be another vote to determine what is actually going to be implemented
So if 51% of people vote "no", we need a new system that's maybe even less popular than the current one? This also doesn't address what I said about tyranny of the majority. I don't care how many people say they don't like TB minimap, until at least one can give me a sound reason that it's a problem in records. To give an example from history, gay sex used to be illegal until people opened up to having a serious debate and realised it wasn't harming anyone. Unless TB minimap is fucking you in the arse, who are you to tell me I can't use it?
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:15 am

@Misty
Misty wrote:I don't care how many people say they don't like TB minimap, until at least one can give me a sound reason that it's a problem in records.
... yeah. I think everbody knows where this is leading. "I wont accept the result of a valid vote if I dont like the result" is not quite the approach that is going to lead to a decision that is supported by "a majority" (whoever that ends up being).

@Has
Well, I wouldnt skip that part. I had the feeling that a good amount of people care about a TAS category (that feeling coming from the other thread) and nobody gives the slightest fuck about pure. AGAIN: This is MY impression. All I am saying is that we should figure out if that is the case and for that we need a vote IMO.

On the voting thing: I agree mainly, preventing fraud in a completely anonymous environment is impossible. But I ld say we should discuss this around 4. and see where it leads.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby haskhasin » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:50 am

Flo wrote:@Misty
Misty wrote:I don't care how many people say they don't like TB minimap, until at least one can give me a sound reason that it's a problem in records.
... yeah. I think everbody knows where this is leading. "I wont accept the result of a valid vote if I dont like the result" is not quite the approach that is going to lead to a decision that is supported by "a majority" (whoever that ends up being).
I agree. I may not like or agree with the result of a vote, but I'll respect it.
Flo wrote: @Has
Well, I wouldnt skip that part. I had the feeling that a good amount of people care about a TAS category (that feeling coming from the other thread) and nobody gives the slightest fuck about pure. AGAIN: This is MY impression. All I am saying is that we should figure out if that is the case and for that we need a vote IMO.
By removing pure all you would do is make a few people unhappy and crying again. Why do you want to remove it? I don't understand.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Karia » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:27 am

Misty wrote: To give an example from history, gay sex used to be illegal until people opened up to having a serious debate and realised it wasn't harming anyone. Unless TB minimap is fucking you in the arse, who are you to tell me I can't use it?
Are you just trying to compare the use of a illegal features with the gay rights?

If you want a list/reasons why the map with it different features should be banned just read my previous posts about this topic. I could live with ppl playing with a complete BLANK minimap, but not even that is enough for some ppl if you consider seeing the map clearly is alrdy something like an advantage that couldnt be provided by something like texmod.

There are legit reasons why ppl want the map not in records. You have to accept it. You can use it, but just not in records.

Or let it say this way: there is nothing wrong about gay sex, but dont expect a straight guy like getting fucked by another dude if he is not into that. Respect that your likings are different to others and dont bother them.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:50 am

@Has
haskhasin wrote:By removing pure all you would do is make a few people unhappy and crying again. Why do you want to remove it? I don't understand.
I might ve expressed myself wrong. I dont have strong feelings about pure, neither positive nor negative. Its not even used so I dont see the harm, same for mission and dungeon records - people that dont like them just ignore them and its fine.

I am just saying if there is the option to extend the current ruleset, there should also be an option to diminish the current ruleset aka remove a category. That doesnt mean I ld support such a change, but the option should be given imo.

I ve no problem to execute rules I dont like myself, but if we re looking at what "the majority" wants in a vote or something similar all options should be given and not just in one direction. Maybe people want to cut down on the rules, I dont know. I just say: Lets ask them.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Misty » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:30 am

Flo wrote:"I wont accept the result of a valid vote if I dont like the result"
That's absolutely not what I said. Correction: I will not consider the result of a vote valid if it is not informed by logical discussion, whether or not I like the result.
Karia wrote:
Misty wrote: To give an example from history, gay sex used to be illegal until people opened up to having a serious debate and realised it wasn't harming anyone. Unless TB minimap is fucking you in the arse, who are you to tell me I can't use it?
Are you just trying to compare the use of a illegal features with the gay rights?
Sure, why not? A few decades ago, you could call gay sex "use of illegal features", and further back in history, the majority would have supported this. My point is that a majority vote without an informed discussion on the topic will not guarantee the right answer.
Karia wrote:If you want a list/reasons why the map with it different features should be banned just read my previous posts about this topic. I could live with ppl playing with a complete BLANK minimap, but not even that is enough for some ppl if you consider seeing the map clearly is alrdy something like an advantage that couldnt be provided by something like texmod.

There are legit reasons why ppl want the map not in records. You have to accept it. You can use it, but just not in records.
That was a good post, and I want to see more discussion on that, but most of the people who want to ban it are just saying "it's bullshit" or "you're too shit to play without it". How am I supposed to respect the votes of these people?
By the way, I don't deny that the minimap offers some clear advantages (although these are far more applicable in casuals than records); my claim is that its features are generally in line with the spirit of GWSCR rules. It's less OP than auto pcons, so why should that be allowed but not this?
Karia wrote:Or let it say this way: there is nothing wrong about gay sex, but dont expect a straight guy like getting fucked by another dude if he is not into that. Respect that your likings are different to others and dont bother them.
+1 I'm not forcing others to use the minimap, just asking them to respect that it's harmless.
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:57 am

@Misty
Misty wrote:Correction: I will not consider the result of a vote valid if it is not informed by logical discussion, whether or not I like the result.
So who defines what is a "logical discussion"? If it is you, then I ld say my point still stands.
Misty wrote:my claim is that its features are generally in line with the spirit of GWSCR rules. It's less OP than auto pcons, so why should that be allowed but not this?
Thank you for labeling it correctling, it is your "claim" afterall. Lets see in a vote if the majority supports your claim or prefers a different option.
Misty wrote:+1 I'm not forcing others to use the minimap, just asking them to respect that it's harmless.
No one has problems with the minimap beeing used in TAS records (as I said, same story with dungeon and mission records, if you dont like it, leave it). What people DO have a problem with though is if others attempt to have their record with minimap be approved in the standard category.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Misty » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:54 pm

Flo wrote:So who defines what is a "logical discussion"? If it is you, then I ld say my point still stands.
No; that's something that has to be agreed on by consensus. If you have no faith in this happening, how can you have any hope of agreeing on a standard set of rules that don't grievously upset a significant chunk of the community?
Flo wrote:Lets see in a vote if the majority supports your claim or prefers a different option.
You keep appealing to the majority as though having numbers makes people right.
Flo wrote:No one has problems with the minimap beeing used in TAS records (as I said, same story with dungeon and mission records, if you dont like it, leave it). What people DO have a problem with though is if others attempt to have their record with minimap be approved in the standard category.
"No one has problems with what people do in their own bedrooms. What people DO have a problem with though is if others attempt to have their sexuality openly respected and be treated as decent humans."
I know this is a wild analogy, but is there actually a problem with it? So far nobody but Alex has put forth an actual argument against the minimap.
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.


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