Step 1: What is a "valid vote"?

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Flo
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:20 am

@Misty
Misty wrote:I mean they need to actively participate in discussions and be willing to put aside personal feelings in the interest of what is actually fair. This means they need to be willing to persist in a debate instead of just agreeing to disagree. If anyone has a reasonable claim that one of these representatives is somehow unqualified, that needs to be considered, and if there's any reasonable doubt, they lose their position. They're still entitled to express their opinion and have it listened to, but their consent is no longer required to make a decision.
Well neat. I think you know this pretty much includes everyone that joined a discussion in... the last few years or so *cough* /s (fyi, the /s signals sarcasm).
To an actual point though: Who decides if an individual has those traits?
Misty wrote:If we do adopt this new system, the only real question I can think of is how to deal with records submitted while a debate is in progress. [...] Should that freeze be applied retroactively, and if so, how far back?
Come to think of it, that's probably a question that needs to be answered whatever system we choose...
One might add that if you declare one decision coming from only the mods as invalid you would therefore declare every decision coming from only mods as invalid. Your thoughts?

@Nika
Nika wrote:The moderators couls become neutral without the right to vote, but with the right to decide on the voting options
Interesting. That might be some common ground everyone could potentially agree on. But how do we find out if thats the case?
Nika wrote:The last step would be to force power into handing us over the site, or create our own subreddit to have controll.
I fail to see how this is related to the topics discussed in this thread. Most people would probably agree that having an inactive admin doesnt really help, but how is this important in the context of setting up a new legislation system?

@Has @Yang
I ld really love to hear your stance on: "In your opinion, which group of people is required to approve of the proposed system or make the decision for a different system?"
If you were going to answer and I am just going ahead to fast because of timezones or something else, I am sorry.

haskhasin
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby haskhasin » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:26 pm

Flo wrote: @Has @Yang
I ld really love to hear your stance on: "In your opinion, which group of people is required to approve of the proposed system or make the decision for a different system?"
If you were going to answer and I am just going ahead to fast because of timezones or something else, I am sorry.
I think we're reasonable enough to agree on a system. We may have different opinions, but we should be able to agree on how to vote for them.

Nika
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Nika » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:04 pm

The choice of website is important if we distinguish between moderators and casual plebs, also to demote people who "abuse their power"

Jang
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Jang » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:21 pm

I agree with has. However I'd like to add that giving everybody a vote doesn't mean they will use it. I highly doubt that the next voting would get screwed over by Bob who feels that toolbox map targetting gives you an unfair advantage at your attempts to tie his fronis record. It just wouldn't exclude him if he felt the need to voice his opinion.

@Nika
Do you want the mods to give up their votes for the right to make up and phrase the poll options or simply give up their votes without any benefit and simply collect the comunities subjects and options.Because I really dislike your idea if it's the first version and I kind of like it if it's the second.

The reason for that is that choosing the poll options is quite a lot of power. Take Flo's poll for the mods a few month ago as a prime example of leading a poll in a certain direction by determing them. I don't think that there should be any extra right comming along with being a mod outside of being able to edit the rule threads.

Anyhow I don't see a gain of anything if you meant the second version either. I simply like it because it would show that the mods have the right mindset for their job and didn't become mods for the power to always get things going their way.
Last edited by Jang on Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Befi
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Befi » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:05 am

must it be that complicated?
like... the rules were good since coindrop, for years...
lets just say: coindrop + toolbox-minishit = "TAS"
and all the good old stuff like autopcons and texmods are "legit" records
and if you guys want, the "pure" record for these guys who ever want
if i would be the admin this side it wont be a discussion, makes no sense for me...
you cant make it right for everyone, the TAS, pure and idk "normal" records are a good idea and completly solve the problem

Karia
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Karia » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:21 am

@Befi

The only problem is when ppl with Tas-conditioned records want them to be approved in the "normal" section. Thats what our mainproblem at this point: to make clear what is reasonable to be considered as normal and not. But that has to be discussed in the other thread.

Misty
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Misty » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:17 am

Befi wrote:like... the rules were good since coindrop, for years...
Yeah we definitely never had any arguments about this before... /s
Befi wrote:if i would be the admin this side it wont be a discussion
The point of this discussion is that we don't want rules dictated to us without a discussion.
Befi wrote:you cant make it right for everyone
Right, so we need to give up on crowd-pleasing solutions - voting is meaningless. It's time for rules piss off everyone but at least we can agree on: pure and TAS.
Befi wrote:idk "normal"
Indeed. You're saying the rules were fine before but now they should be changed to ban the minimap. As it currently stands, whichever way that decision goes will have to ignore what a lot of people are saying. I think we can reach an agreement through discussion (if people are willing to stop flaming each other and talk), but others think the system that elected Trump is a better idea.
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

Flo
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:34 am

@Jang
Well having the "right mindset" is one thing, excluding 5 active members from voting in a small comminity is pretty... harsh. Like, how much is that, between 10-20% of the active community?

@Befi
No, obviously it doesnt have to be. I argued in the same way, but people (I am still not quite sure if rightfully so) claimed that those decisions were only made by a small, not representative subset of the community and the "majority" (whoever that is) wants it to be different. I have not seen proof for that - but obvisouly nobody can disprove it either... sooooooo...
Also what Alex said.

@Misty
Misty wrote:The point of this discussion is that we don't want rules dictated to us without a discussion.
I ll be a little more blunt this time, but who is "we"?
Misty wrote:It's time for rules piss off everyone but at least we can agree on: pure and TAS.
I dont think we are quite where you describe. I personally would really like to stick to a system that distinguishes between small modifications (no, I wont define that now, we had that discussion many times already) and severe ones.
BUT I dont think anyone that claims to represent a "majority" would mind having a vote with all the options beeing present - since in theory, the majority should win the vote, right?

Misty
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Misty » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:33 pm

Flo wrote:
Misty wrote:The point of this discussion is that we don't want rules dictated to us without a discussion.
I ll be a little more blunt this time, but who is "we"?
I could be wrong, but I assume there is almost nobody who would be happy with one person having all the power, if that person made decisions they disagreed with. I think you're very reasonable, but I absolutely wouldn't trust you to decide all the rules by yourself if you weren't listening to what others had to say. Hell, I wouldn't want to do it myself if I couldn't get any feedback.
Flo wrote:anyone that claims to represent a "majority" would mind having a vote with all the options beeing present - since in theory, the majority should win the vote, right?
Of course, but who ever said the majority is right? I'm sure you're familiar with the joke "9 out of 10 people enjoy gang rape", and the analogy fits here. If 9 people who are mostly indifferent and have uninformed opinions vote against an expert who has a strong stake in the matter, should the 9 win? No they should not, but that's democracy.
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

Befi
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Befi » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:20 pm

pure records = w/o any tools except ign timer (required is a full video)
normal "legit" record = old rules since before coindrop (autopcons + texmod + timer ) - video required
tas= every shit like toolbox minimap or guild wars attri hack idk whatever

and the discussion is closed, its not that difficult, everybody would get mad anyway but we got the rules were using since this webside ist online + the tas and pure records

what is happening with the records which will get posted in the next few days? i feel like we dont have functioning tactics since we got like 20moderator

just pleeeaaaase complete the rules as easy as u guys can and as fast as you can


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