Step 1: What is a "valid vote"?

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Flo
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Step 1: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:43 am

Since a lot of people seem to think that the last vote we had was invalid and/or misrepresentative, I would like to collect some input on that topic.

What is a "valid vote"?

And, if you re feeling especially intellectual today:
Who decides what the contents / options of a vote are?
Who decides who is allowed to request a vote?
Who is allowed to vote / has a vote?
Who determines who is allowed to vote / has a vote?
+Of course every solution to a problem I didnt mention here.

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EDIT 12.04.2017 / 18:11

There has been a good bit of input and really little disagreement to some of the basic point (especially that a vote should be held).

This is what the next few steps could be
1. Wait a few more days for input in this thread
2. Set up a thread with some really basic points regarding a new decision making system for the rules (for example like a vote or that what Misty proposed)
3. See if we can get a consensus on the topic mentioned above
4. Determine how a vote would look like (anonymous? everyone can vote?)
5. Set up a vote if the current system should be kept (pure/standard/tas)
5.1 If 5 ends with "Yes (the system should be kept)" the case is settled and we ve established a voting system for upcoming problems
5.2 If 5 ends with "No (the system shouldnt be kept)" there has to be another vote to determine what is actually going to be implemented

I think this whole process will take us about ~4-6 weeks.

Disclaimer: The described approach (1-5.2) is NOT a decision, its an (in my eyes) reasonable approach to this subject without touching contentual stuff in an early stage (only 5. is acutal contentual and thats quite far down the line). If you agree or disagree, I ld like to hear your opinion - especially from the other mods if they would support the mentioned approach.

Jang
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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Jang » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:22 am

Wanted to post this in the duo thread but I feel this is a better place.
So...we have discussion threads about literally everything. Collect whats said there and shape it into a poll. The poll HAS to be public because we have only elected the mods to manage this side not to rule over the SC comunity.
I'm aware that we had torubles with fake accounts on big pools in the past but I have no doubt that with some properly used brains a solution for that can be found.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:40 am

Lets say there is a guy named "Bob", that only has 1 post and its for the 10th tie of the Kilroy Dungeon and he has been inactive for 3 of the last 4 years. He proceeds to explain how Elite Area Records should be done.
Flo wrote:Who decides what the contents / options of a vote are?
Who decides who is allowed to request a vote?
Who is allowed to vote / has a vote?
Who determines who is allowed to vote / has a vote?
Go into detail please how you would advance with the system you just proposed. And also explain, who would decide that your system is the one that should be used instead of any other?

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Jang » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:08 pm

1. The discussion usually end up with the same few opinions being rephrased over and over. As I said just collect whats said and shape it into a few different poll options that try to cover up peoples opinions as good as possible.

2. I think you can't deny somebody an opinion or a vote so nobody should decide this. In a certain way you could argue that this means i'm deciding that everyone gets a vote...so feel free to disagree and voice your opinions :D.

3. I think the person who did solo fronis 4 years ago and even people who never held a record should have a vote if they care enough to make use of it. Why? Because they can also attempt going for records, and therefore be affected by the rules, regardless of whether they achieve the record or not.

4. Basically covered this up with 2). I think everybody should be allowed to request a vote and nobody should be allowed to deny them one. Again feel free to disagree.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby haskhasin » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:57 pm

Fully agree with jang. Our community is small enough that everyone who cares can and should vote. I don't think we have any rights to say "no you cannot vote".

I'm not sure how to implement this in practice, we need it to be:
1. Open to allow everyone interested to vote
2. Secure to prevent vote manipulation
3. Anonymous for obvious reasons

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:37 pm

Thank you for your input @Yang @Has.

I think there will be huge problems with "preventing vote manipulation" in an "anonymous vote" and/or "allow everyone interested to vote". If you ve ideas regarding that, I think everyone would appreciate you sharing them.

One more thing to consider: In your opinion, which group of people is required to approve of the proposed system or make the decision for a different system?

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Misty » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:47 pm

I have to disagree with the whole democracy thing... it's not that Bob shouldn't have a vote, but there's no way his vote should count for as much as mine or yours. I'm okay with only a portion of the community deciding all the rules, but firstly there need to be more than 5 of them, and they need to be truly representative of the community.
Also, majority votes should not mean the end of a discussion. If just one person has a reasonable objection to what everyone else says, you guys need to take the time to consider it further. If reasonable people can't reach a unanimous decision, like a jury is required to do on much more serious matters, then we must abandon the contentious task of maintaining a "standard" set of rules, as there is clearly no standard that is accepted by the community.
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Flo » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:27 pm

Thank you @Misty.
Misty wrote:I'm okay with only a portion of the community deciding all the rules, but firstly there need to be more than 5 of them, and they need to be truly representative of the community.
To understand your position it would really help if you could explain how you mean that. You re tending more towards an electoral college? If yes, how would one determine if a small subset is really "representative of the community"?
Misty wrote:If just one person has a reasonable objection to what everyone else says, you guys need to take the time to consider it further.
Please elaborate what "you guys" means in this context. So after a hypothetical vote is held and a decision has been made, how should the system account for new upcoming problems?

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Misty » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:42 pm

I mean they need to actively participate in discussions and be willing to put aside personal feelings in the interest of what is actually fair. This means they need to be willing to persist in a debate instead of just agreeing to disagree. If anyone has a reasonable claim that one of these representatives is somehow unqualified, that needs to be considered, and if there's any reasonable doubt, they lose their position. They're still entitled to express their opinion and have it listened to, but their consent is no longer required to make a decision.
"you guys" = the mods, or whoever is making the decisions around here. No votes are necessary: if you can't reach a unanimous decision, you keep talking about it and find some common ground.

If we do adopt this new system, the only real question I can think of is how to deal with records submitted while a debate is in progress. For example, if a contentious new Toolbox feature is released, and the rules don't explicitly forbid it but people think they ought to, should we accept the status quo until a decision is reached, or put a temporary freeze on approving records using that feature? Should that freeze be applied retroactively, and if so, how far back?
Come to think of it, that's probably a question that needs to be answered whatever system we choose...
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

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Re: What is a "valid vote"?

Postby Nika » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:36 am

Everyone who considers himself an active part of the community should have the right to vote.
We could have official lists with these people paired with their ingame names to make sure noone joins with additional accounts.
The moderators couls become neutral without the right to vote, but with the right to decide on the voting options

The last step would be to force power into handing us over the site, or create our own subreddit to have controll.


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