Page 1 of 7

Yet another rule topic

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:35 am
by Cruz
Picking up the discussion from the TAS/Pure thread here.

Let's actually make an effort to interpret the rules as they were before Nika's blunder!

Point 8 states that visual modifications to the game are allowed in records. It also makes a distinction between one-time inputs that corresponds to one in-game action and things that trigger continuous actions or actions which cannot be done without the tool.

My interpretation
The toolbox minimap offers an alternative to the standard compass with new visual features. But it also gives you a new way to target agents, which cannot be replicated without the tool. (This is still up for further interpretation though, as targeting an enemy or ally will always be possible trough clicking it (one-time action)). According to the rule above, the visual aspect of the minimap is allowed. The targeting aspect however, doesn't fully meet the requirement of "one player input corresponds to a game action".

On enforcing this and other rules
As we all know, enforcing the rules is primarily an issue of trust. With that said though, there is currently no way for the moderators to know if this rule has been broken (trough misuse of the targeting feature or any other hack) if a player hasn't provided a video. This means that whether or not a screenshot is showing the minimap gives us no information on if the targeting feature was used. But we cannot reverse the burden of proof without making a video recording mandatory for every player.

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:41 pm
by Misty
Cruz wrote:whether or not a screenshot is showing the minimap gives us no information on if the targeting feature was used
In fact it doesn't even tell you whether or not the minimap was used, since you can simply turn it off. The rule cannot be enforced without requiring videos from EVERYONE in the team. The current rule about videos allows us to enforce every single other rule except bots.

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:19 pm
by Ether
Lets be real. No real discussion will ever happen about this. You can't use reason or logic in this forum when the mods are extremely biased against it. and add to the fact that the mods have said that they do not care about the forum or the discussions on here, i think thats a sign that we change either the mods or the platform that they hold

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:04 am
by Nika

That wasn't a blunder, i simply executed what the mods had decided in the last vote.

However my thought process was entirely the same as yours. As long as you don't use a feature that isn't reproduceable with a texmod or a macro the record is legit.
So you could say my rulephrasing was a blunder, but provocation lies within my name.

@Ether: That's not true. We ha our fair share of discussions. The problem of this community is, it's so imcredible divided into fbgm and its haters.
The mods, or rather I who was the mod who somewhat expressed the things you said about us mods, do care about the discussions. It's just after a vote i don't listen to the cries of the few.

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:44 am
by Misty
Nika, you told me you don't have respect for the community... this isn't just about what a handful of "FBGM" players want, or even what a plurality of people want. It's about what's reasonable, whether we like it or not. If the community as a whole dislikes texmod but wants rupt bots, does that make them okay? No, of course not. It's up to us as logical humans to decide what makes sense, and not up to the mods to vote on it without even discussing.

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:38 am
by Karia
I really like the use of the toolbox minimap. My most favourite feature is the eoe and zephyr display so i can see where eoe is without having to imagine the circle myself. I just cant get along with the appearance of the map or the different ranges (cast range or aggro range) cause im very good with using the regular compass and the mob units with the direction indicator make this impossible to me.

The point where i start to disagree is the boss mob feature what shows you the location of the bosses what is alrdy an huge advantage for example on derv lord cause you can be more relaxed without having looking for the boss while avoiding stucks and managing the correct hos timing and so on. But you could also argue about that with the green "frog" texmod mike made for his solo doa so he could find fiends better so all that would be still ok for me (really, it is ok!) even if its in a gray-gray-gray-grayzone.

The point i highly disagree with is targeting. That must be forbidden cause its not reproduceable by macros or anything else. Even if the clear map of toolbox gives you alrdy a vision advantage this is undeniable a feature that cant be allowed with a sane mind. Ofc ppl with an high experience say that its no problem to target an enemy by clicking on him is no problem and with enough preparation you can get all splits in 6-0 for example. But the fact it cant be made without this tb minimap is in the same category like recalling/hosing from gitb.

I like toolbox and the minimap, but i dont think it should be a thing in records.

EDIT: This requires, like misty, myself and many others alrdy said, a video from every person in the run. We have to enforce that rule since its 2k17 and almost every computer can record with a minimum resolution. And all the 3 ppl on this world who cant do this sadly cant participate anymore. Life sucks, you suck. Get a fucking computer from this century.

And everyone who cant upload his video should sent a USB-stick to a mod so we also can catch the other 3ppl who complaining about not being able to upload. You also suck hard.

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:41 am
by Nika
We never had a vote without mentioning topics in a discussion.
Discussions are there so people can form their opinion.
And no i dont respect the communitys opinion, but i consider their arguments in order to form my own opinion

Also i +1 what alex just said

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:33 am
by Karia
OK since no1 from the pro-minimap ppl voiced their opinion we can all agree that any interaction with the tb minimap is forbidden. Information from it like boss/90%/ranges/hos/recall+soh/ are questionable but "okay"
No real discussion will ever happen about this
You cant complain about no discussion if you never tell us why you think allowing all of this would be a good idea. Bring up some arguments and dont cry like little children cause your parents want to take away your favourite toy.

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:09 am
by Misty
Karia wrote:the pro-minimap ppl
If you're talking about people who want targeting on the minimap to be permitted, I think you're imagining them. Nobody wants targeting to be allowed; we all agree with you, really. If anyone wants to raise an argument to disallow those other features, maybe Has can add an option to turn them off in record runs, but as you said, nobody voiced their opinion so the anti-minimap folks obviously don't care =P

Re: Yet another rule topic

Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:20 am
by Marcin
Toolbox minimap should be banned in records. Not only is the targeting shit just broken.. the minimap feature where it shows every nearby spirit range [ qz + eoe] is also as bad as the targeting. You can just run like a headless chicken in foundry into the qz feature to get perfect timing on important skills like SF+iau rather than normally having to locate it manually. [I know this from personal experience from low man records such as duo+4man] Also the eoe marker just allows tanks to easily make a ball without even any skill, just run and pull your enemies into the green area on the minimap and gg, rather than using skills and adjusting to where you think the range would be without that feature. Some people might say 'Oh textmod does the same shit with spirit range' but it shows the spirit range from your pov, not from the spirits place of standing so its nothing compared to this 'minimap' tool.

Also what else do you have to add the make this map even worse? Soh and recall markers? Showing every single detail of hos spots, glitch spots, and those circles which show where rift caps? I see this minimap as too much of an advantage to be used in records.

P.s- The mods already agreed upon the decision to ban this, all mods besides of course the creator wanted to prevent usage of this in records. Anyway its pointless to remind you of this since you guys decide to be rebels and still ignore this stuff.