Yet another rule topic

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K A O S Theory
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby K A O S Theory » Mon May 08, 2017 8:06 pm

if yur growing tired of it then just ban all 3rd party tools from official records already, tools can be used and still be discussed and congratulated via what is able to be done (interesting tactics, crazy bugs etc), but you shouldn't expect acknowledgement of skill from it

The game is how it was developed and made to be played without 3rd party tools, you don't redefine the game via hacks and 3rd party tools and still call it a "Guild Wars Speed Record", because it isnt anymore, it isnt Guild Wars, its Guild Wars + Toolbox, or w/e else you have done to the game. You dont see people taking other games, and modding them in some way to deviate from the original game, then still say they are running the same game. Toolbox has gotten to the level of it being a major modification of the game, and should be treated as such.

The situation is unique. You cant argue that, this game is unique. It plays like a simple co-op/single player game, but has a persistent connection and world through the games outposts. We cannot do nearly what would be possible if this was a completely single player game, where we control all the variables on the local machine. We cant cheat and mod like we could a single player game. But the point still stands, we are modifying the game beyond what was originally meant to be played. If this was a true persistent online game, more so if it was still actively being policed and maintained, a large section of the core features of toolbox would be a warrant for a ban, can you even argue this? You have to realize that this is a red flag for many GW players? It makes me wonder how many people who wanted to get into SC, didn't because they were not comfortable putting their account at risk using tools like toolbox, and felt intimidated by joining in because of everyone who was having an inherent advantage over those who dont.

Auto pcons? Auto quest takes? Minimap? These all reduce cognitive load on the player. Its like saying you are the best starcraft player, but only if my base auto builds itself so I JUST focus on my army micromanagement. You are removing purposeful elements of the game by doing this.

auto pcons - removes any necessity to think about maintaining pcons at all, also, if you die and get scrolled or something, having every pcon pop instantly is such a big advantage I dont know why its talked about more.

auto quest takes - just go to them, and hit a button or hotkey instead of the 2-4 that you need to hit. Its more minor than pcons but it still allows you avoid having to stop to dialog with the npc completely (not even talking about the exploitable dialogs that can allow you to do/skip things not possible otherwise)

minimap - hos range, direction, recall positions, ability to see what is at what health, etc makes offdmg incredibly easy cmp'd to otherwise, being able to target within your set viewport vs seeing the entire map overhead makes a large difference

Idk just play how you want to play, if you wanna show a toolbox record is possible beyond vanilla, then show it, great cool awesome, but it shouldnt be considered a record of Guild Wars

EDIT: And if anyone counter argues with the point about how it isnt enforcable, nothing will ever be 100% enforcable, you can easily find ways to manipulate the game as well as any evidence that come as "proof" of a run. In the end you push innocent until proven guilty and move on. Were here to have fun, not babysit people, dont expect everyone to be complete cancer in regards to cheating
Last edited by K A O S Theory on Mon May 08, 2017 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cruz
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Cruz » Mon May 08, 2017 8:53 pm

It's just the way we as a community prefers to play. We are very much in the power of deciding what we consider a record ourselves. On this site, we created the pure section for records where no third party tools are used.

K A O S Theory
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby K A O S Theory » Mon May 08, 2017 9:00 pm

Cruz wrote:It's just the way we as a community prefers to play. We are very much in the power of deciding what we consider a record ourselves. On this site, we created the pure section for records where no third party tools are used.
given the amount of discussion and debate i don't think you can speak for the entire community. but hey, if you do, then wtf are you all arguing about on here

you all are worried that you are a split and dying community, I am giving arguments and food for thought to maybe see something better come out of this debate

Misty
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Misty » Mon May 08, 2017 11:34 pm

K A O S Theory wrote:Its like saying you are the best starcraft player, but only if my base auto builds itself so I JUST focus on my army micromanagement. You are removing purposeful elements of the game by doing this.
C'mon, you know perfectly well that's a ridiculous comparison =P ANet didn't intend stuff like clicking on pcons to be part of the challenge of the game. If they release an official statement saying otherwise I'll re-think my stance, but until then I'll play the game the way I think it should be.
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

Nika
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Nika » Tue May 09, 2017 12:03 am

Kaos... That shouldve been done in the past but wasnt done, now it's too late

K A O S Theory
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby K A O S Theory » Tue May 09, 2017 1:32 am

Misty wrote:
K A O S Theory wrote:Its like saying you are the best starcraft player, but only if my base auto builds itself so I JUST focus on my army micromanagement. You are removing purposeful elements of the game by doing this.
C'mon, you know perfectly well that's a ridiculous comparison =P ANet didn't intend stuff like clicking on pcons to be part of the challenge of the game. If they release an official statement saying otherwise I'll re-think my stance, but until then I'll play the game the way I think it should be.
Its a perfectly relevant comparison, it is an aspect of the game that players are inherently ignoring because they dont feel like doing it. Its like saying that blizzard didnt intend for macro to be a thing, so you deem that worker bots are fine for starcraft now. If they didnt intend pcons to be manually popped as items then they would have added a system to auto pop for you, until the time they add a system (never) you are okaying botlike behavior to be legitimate. You already know my argument for "until they release a statement" because they already have in simple terms of game actions.
Nika wrote:Kaos... That shouldve been done in the past but wasnt done, now it's too late
Image

Cruz
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Cruz » Tue May 09, 2017 2:30 pm

K A O S Theory wrote:
Cruz wrote:It's just the way we as a community prefers to play. We are very much in the power of deciding what we consider a record ourselves. On this site, we created the pure section for records where no third party tools are used.
given the amount of discussion and debate i don't think you can speak for the entire community. but hey, if you do, then wtf are you all arguing about on here

you all are worried that you are a split and dying community, I am giving arguments and food for thought to maybe see something better come out of this debate
You seem to be the only one here right now who has a problem with auto pcons. If you know others who agree with you, you're very welcome to invite them here to partake in the discussions. As it stands though, I'm afraid your stance is in clear minority.

Nika
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Nika » Tue May 09, 2017 2:35 pm

Cruz, that isn't quite right. There are alot of people who do have an issue with auto pcons, IF minimap and co aren't allowed. Also there have been many voices in the past (DS players and others) that have strongly disagreed with it but have been driven away from the page, because well - the site users wanted it :^)


It is however obvious that we cannot ever remove the rule of autopcons being allowed in the standard ruleset anymore, because 4+ years of hard work and record running have been put into this.

K A O S Theory
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby K A O S Theory » Tue May 09, 2017 10:06 pm

Far as I have seen its primarily only FBGM/Loa/fam/<insert guild title here> members that are rlly for auto pcons and most tb features. Most sc guild leads/people outside of this group i talk to think it was retarded in the first place to allow them. Its just like nika said they dont give a shit about this site or give a shit about records (one of two) enough to debate it with you guys.

Dwadwa <3
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Dwadwa <3 » Wed May 10, 2017 3:14 am

Mdr

Cruz you are the perfect example of the cancer honest people gave up to fight.

I don't always agree with kaos' point of view, but i have to admit he took the time to explain point by point how harmful is the use of tb in records.

Since the first day of the TB, we told people it should be banned, but pRma were the bad guys. We had this discussion years ago, and you're still there debating on it...


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