Re: Yet another rule topic
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:15 am
Let me provide the opposite argument, I don't think anything should be banned.
Does toolbox minimap give some kind of advantage over the users of the normal compass? Of course, but it's perfectly within the spirit of the gwscr rules and it's by far less "OP" than other allowed hacks such as auto-pcons. The spirit of gwscr rules is "if a tool allows you to do a run that is not possible without it, then it's not ok". "It requires more clicks/actions/time/whatever" is not an argument, because we allow auto-pcons, and not having to focus and use time on using pcons upon being ressed is a huge difference than having to manually use ~6 items. "Shows more information" is also not an argument because we allow texmods, including things such as radar range or fiends highlighter. If you don't agree with the above, we recently introduced a new category for you, called [pure].
* Targeting: you can do the same by moving your camera and clicking on the thing. You can target anything you want in the time it takes to pop 6 pcons, so if pcons can be instant and automatic, why can't targeting be instant and interactive? (Of course, targeting untargetable agents is not allowed regardless of the method used).
* Showing a larger area than default: this only affects the triggering of mobs, and if you play an elite area enough to care about that, you are going to learn the spots where patrols trigger anyway.
* Accurate pathing map: apparently noone cares about that, but I'm going to say it anyway, if you play an area competitively enough, you'll get to the point where you know the pathing map by heart. Pathing map only really help less experienced players.
* Markers: the one disadvantage of the pathing map is losing references. Those references can be reintroduced with custom markers. That's it. Why do you care if I have an extra dot or line in my map? I could just make a texmod to draw it in the ground instead. Why is a dot on the ground OK and a dot on the minimap not OK? Even worse: if I want to be reliable with positioning, I could just use a movement macro since that's ok apparently, but I believe it's much more fun and interactive to move with some references than to press a button.
* Cast range, spirit range, hos range: apart from having the same result with texmods, I don't think any skilled player is actually affected by this.
* EoE range: this is really good in casuals to deal with idiots who place eoe at random, but in records EoE is going to be placed right, I don't think this has any impact on competitive gameplay.
* QZ range: this is somewhat more "OP" due to the randomness of mobs using it, but similar to EoE it doesn't affect gameplay in records runs.
* Direction indicator: really? During development, I did it because it was cute, and it stuck. I don't understand how this is OP. There are two possibilities: 1. the mob behavior is so obvious that any good player doesn't need this map indicator, or 2. it doesn't matter who the mob is going for and it's not going to affect your decision making. It might be OP in pvp against spikes or something, but we don't care here.
* Boss size: Derv lord is often brought as an example for this so let me tell you: I've been doing derv lord pull before and after the minimap and the only difference is that before, I used to ping (or better, have pinged by the mesmer) the lord (I know when to ping such that it's just after MT's DC at ranger hill). Do I have to do less? Sure, but it's not even comparable to automatic vs manual pcons. It doesn't make the user faster, and anyone can do the same thing without.
* SoH, SW marks : there are very few places where this actually matters, but sometimes it's very useful to know exactly where your stance is going to take you. When this was the case, I used to manually draw a circle on the map where I was when using the stance, and keep drawing it every few seconds, to always know the spot. Again the minimap just makes it easier, but not even comparable to having to manually pop pcons.
* Recall, SoH, SW line, Recall distance : seriously? It's just a cute visual indicator. It's neat to keep track of where your recall targets decides to run in a casual, but it has no effect in a record run where things are planned and performed regularly.
* Mob color according to health : In theory, in a coordinated team this should not be needed as everyone knows what offdamage/side/whatever to hit, however honestly I see it being used quite a bit combined with targeting for very effective damage distribution. The in-game equivalent would be tabbing through, or selecting enemies and looking at their health. I think it's neat and it should be kept allowed according to the spirit of the rules, but I admit this is probably the only case where doing the task manually takes much longer, even compared to manual pcons, and I would consider an argument for banning this.
To conclude, it's not enough to argue that the minimap gives an advantage, I know it does, just like automatic pcons, texmod, etc. You need to argue that the minimap gives an unfair advantage, or in other words, that it allows players to do a run that would not be possible without it.
TL;DR: Read the 2nd and last paragraph.
Does toolbox minimap give some kind of advantage over the users of the normal compass? Of course, but it's perfectly within the spirit of the gwscr rules and it's by far less "OP" than other allowed hacks such as auto-pcons. The spirit of gwscr rules is "if a tool allows you to do a run that is not possible without it, then it's not ok". "It requires more clicks/actions/time/whatever" is not an argument, because we allow auto-pcons, and not having to focus and use time on using pcons upon being ressed is a huge difference than having to manually use ~6 items. "Shows more information" is also not an argument because we allow texmods, including things such as radar range or fiends highlighter. If you don't agree with the above, we recently introduced a new category for you, called [pure].
* Targeting: you can do the same by moving your camera and clicking on the thing. You can target anything you want in the time it takes to pop 6 pcons, so if pcons can be instant and automatic, why can't targeting be instant and interactive? (Of course, targeting untargetable agents is not allowed regardless of the method used).
* Showing a larger area than default: this only affects the triggering of mobs, and if you play an elite area enough to care about that, you are going to learn the spots where patrols trigger anyway.
* Accurate pathing map: apparently noone cares about that, but I'm going to say it anyway, if you play an area competitively enough, you'll get to the point where you know the pathing map by heart. Pathing map only really help less experienced players.
* Markers: the one disadvantage of the pathing map is losing references. Those references can be reintroduced with custom markers. That's it. Why do you care if I have an extra dot or line in my map? I could just make a texmod to draw it in the ground instead. Why is a dot on the ground OK and a dot on the minimap not OK? Even worse: if I want to be reliable with positioning, I could just use a movement macro since that's ok apparently, but I believe it's much more fun and interactive to move with some references than to press a button.
* Cast range, spirit range, hos range: apart from having the same result with texmods, I don't think any skilled player is actually affected by this.
* EoE range: this is really good in casuals to deal with idiots who place eoe at random, but in records EoE is going to be placed right, I don't think this has any impact on competitive gameplay.
* QZ range: this is somewhat more "OP" due to the randomness of mobs using it, but similar to EoE it doesn't affect gameplay in records runs.
* Direction indicator: really? During development, I did it because it was cute, and it stuck. I don't understand how this is OP. There are two possibilities: 1. the mob behavior is so obvious that any good player doesn't need this map indicator, or 2. it doesn't matter who the mob is going for and it's not going to affect your decision making. It might be OP in pvp against spikes or something, but we don't care here.
* Boss size: Derv lord is often brought as an example for this so let me tell you: I've been doing derv lord pull before and after the minimap and the only difference is that before, I used to ping (or better, have pinged by the mesmer) the lord (I know when to ping such that it's just after MT's DC at ranger hill). Do I have to do less? Sure, but it's not even comparable to automatic vs manual pcons. It doesn't make the user faster, and anyone can do the same thing without.
* SoH, SW marks : there are very few places where this actually matters, but sometimes it's very useful to know exactly where your stance is going to take you. When this was the case, I used to manually draw a circle on the map where I was when using the stance, and keep drawing it every few seconds, to always know the spot. Again the minimap just makes it easier, but not even comparable to having to manually pop pcons.
* Recall, SoH, SW line, Recall distance : seriously? It's just a cute visual indicator. It's neat to keep track of where your recall targets decides to run in a casual, but it has no effect in a record run where things are planned and performed regularly.
* Mob color according to health : In theory, in a coordinated team this should not be needed as everyone knows what offdamage/side/whatever to hit, however honestly I see it being used quite a bit combined with targeting for very effective damage distribution. The in-game equivalent would be tabbing through, or selecting enemies and looking at their health. I think it's neat and it should be kept allowed according to the spirit of the rules, but I admit this is probably the only case where doing the task manually takes much longer, even compared to manual pcons, and I would consider an argument for banning this.
To conclude, it's not enough to argue that the minimap gives an advantage, I know it does, just like automatic pcons, texmod, etc. You need to argue that the minimap gives an unfair advantage, or in other words, that it allows players to do a run that would not be possible without it.
TL;DR: Read the 2nd and last paragraph.