Yet another rule topic

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haskhasin
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby haskhasin » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:15 am

Let me provide the opposite argument, I don't think anything should be banned.

Does toolbox minimap give some kind of advantage over the users of the normal compass? Of course, but it's perfectly within the spirit of the gwscr rules and it's by far less "OP" than other allowed hacks such as auto-pcons. The spirit of gwscr rules is "if a tool allows you to do a run that is not possible without it, then it's not ok". "It requires more clicks/actions/time/whatever" is not an argument, because we allow auto-pcons, and not having to focus and use time on using pcons upon being ressed is a huge difference than having to manually use ~6 items. "Shows more information" is also not an argument because we allow texmods, including things such as radar range or fiends highlighter. If you don't agree with the above, we recently introduced a new category for you, called [pure].

* Targeting: you can do the same by moving your camera and clicking on the thing. You can target anything you want in the time it takes to pop 6 pcons, so if pcons can be instant and automatic, why can't targeting be instant and interactive? (Of course, targeting untargetable agents is not allowed regardless of the method used).

* Showing a larger area than default: this only affects the triggering of mobs, and if you play an elite area enough to care about that, you are going to learn the spots where patrols trigger anyway.

* Accurate pathing map: apparently noone cares about that, but I'm going to say it anyway, if you play an area competitively enough, you'll get to the point where you know the pathing map by heart. Pathing map only really help less experienced players.

* Markers: the one disadvantage of the pathing map is losing references. Those references can be reintroduced with custom markers. That's it. Why do you care if I have an extra dot or line in my map? I could just make a texmod to draw it in the ground instead. Why is a dot on the ground OK and a dot on the minimap not OK? Even worse: if I want to be reliable with positioning, I could just use a movement macro since that's ok apparently, but I believe it's much more fun and interactive to move with some references than to press a button.

* Cast range, spirit range, hos range: apart from having the same result with texmods, I don't think any skilled player is actually affected by this.

* EoE range: this is really good in casuals to deal with idiots who place eoe at random, but in records EoE is going to be placed right, I don't think this has any impact on competitive gameplay.

* QZ range: this is somewhat more "OP" due to the randomness of mobs using it, but similar to EoE it doesn't affect gameplay in records runs.

* Direction indicator: really? During development, I did it because it was cute, and it stuck. I don't understand how this is OP. There are two possibilities: 1. the mob behavior is so obvious that any good player doesn't need this map indicator, or 2. it doesn't matter who the mob is going for and it's not going to affect your decision making. It might be OP in pvp against spikes or something, but we don't care here.

* Boss size: Derv lord is often brought as an example for this so let me tell you: I've been doing derv lord pull before and after the minimap and the only difference is that before, I used to ping (or better, have pinged by the mesmer) the lord (I know when to ping such that it's just after MT's DC at ranger hill). Do I have to do less? Sure, but it's not even comparable to automatic vs manual pcons. It doesn't make the user faster, and anyone can do the same thing without.

* SoH, SW marks : there are very few places where this actually matters, but sometimes it's very useful to know exactly where your stance is going to take you. When this was the case, I used to manually draw a circle on the map where I was when using the stance, and keep drawing it every few seconds, to always know the spot. Again the minimap just makes it easier, but not even comparable to having to manually pop pcons.

* Recall, SoH, SW line, Recall distance : seriously? It's just a cute visual indicator. It's neat to keep track of where your recall targets decides to run in a casual, but it has no effect in a record run where things are planned and performed regularly.

* Mob color according to health : In theory, in a coordinated team this should not be needed as everyone knows what offdamage/side/whatever to hit, however honestly I see it being used quite a bit combined with targeting for very effective damage distribution. The in-game equivalent would be tabbing through, or selecting enemies and looking at their health. I think it's neat and it should be kept allowed according to the spirit of the rules, but I admit this is probably the only case where doing the task manually takes much longer, even compared to manual pcons, and I would consider an argument for banning this.

To conclude, it's not enough to argue that the minimap gives an advantage, I know it does, just like automatic pcons, texmod, etc. You need to argue that the minimap gives an unfair advantage, or in other words, that it allows players to do a run that would not be possible without it.

TL;DR: Read the 2nd and last paragraph.

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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Flo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:12 am

So you really want to get wrapped up in a contentual discussion again without establishing a generally accepted system to actually decide whats going to be done? (Sure, its going slower than some might ve expected, but just pressure Nika+Marcin a little so we can proceed.)

I mean, I am not going to stop you (I couldnt even if I wanted to anyways), but dont you remember the last 5 (?) times you tried skipping the necessary steps in between? Why do you think its so different this time and where do you think this is leading?

haskhasin
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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby haskhasin » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:54 am

well some kept saying that there were no arguments pro minimap, so I wanted to provide mine. I already commented in the system-to-decide-things thread.

By the way, while writing my post above, I realized that it's all about the spirit of the spirit of the rules, and from that anything can be derived: on one hand we have TAS, on the other we have pure. In between, we have this gray area that's like "if it can be done in game it's ok BUT not things that play for you like rupt bots BUT auto pcons are ok" and everyone has their own view or interpretation on "if it can be done in game it's ok". And that interpretation has a wide range from mine, which is "ok unless you absolutely cannot perform the run without the tool" to others, which are much more restrictive to varying degrees, but I cannot pinpoint clearly. Maybe they don't even know, and just hand-pick things that feel ok from things that don't.

Regardless, I would much rather find an agreement on this root spirit-of-the-rules than to hand-pick each toolbox feature as we go. Who knows, maybe someone develops their own tools not even imagining they would be put in question, then posts a record and then the community says "nope that's not ok". Who knows, maybe it happened already, and now that someone is fucked because he's both called a cheater and he got used to his stuff and he either has to keep being hated upon or go back to his old ways knowing that better is possible. We really need some good, clear principles, and not just a list of things you can and cannot do.

Also it's funny because we are allowing auto-pcons while arguing about this stuff.

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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Nika » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:09 am

Flo, I said 28th.
And I totally agree with has as its basically the same stuff I said 10k times in the past:
We cater to our own needs in the standard ruleset, therefor we should define this more exactly to male further discussion obsolete

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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Misty » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:52 am

I don't see any harm in discussing the minimap while we wait for the bigger discussion to be resolved. After a decision is made there, we'll still want to talk about the minimap, and being able to refer to stuff like what Has said should be useful. For now, I just want to hear what anti-minimap people think, because so far nobody has come close to countering Has's points. I don't understand how anyone can think "TB minimap is cheating" is a convincing argument from someone who uses auto pcons... and I don't see how we're supposed to have a higher level debate about rule-making when people won't even put forward their views on this thing they apparently feel so strongly about.
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Viscous Dreams » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:59 am

I think the point is that popping pcons manually doesn't really require much "skill" and is just an annoying burden, whilst some minimap features do remove some things that are considered more skill-based.

My own view is that micro skill in guild wars is fairly limited - probably 90% of people in the community are basically at the top level of micro skill and there is a definite limit there; for me all the skill comes from creating tactics and so I don't mind about toolbox at all.

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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Flo » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:28 am

After all, I am not so violently bent upon my own opinion, as to reject any offer, proposed by wise men, which shall be found equally innocent, cheap, easy, and effectual. But before something of that kind shall be advanced in contradiction to my scheme, and offering a better, I desire the author or authors will be pleased maturely to consider two points. First, As things now stand, how they will be able to find food and raiment for a hundred thousand useless mouths and backs. And secondly, There being a round million of creatures in humane figure throughout this kingdom, whose whole subsistence put into a common stock, would leave them in debt two million of pounds sterling, adding those who are beggars by profession, to the bulk of farmers, cottagers and laborers, with their wives and children, who are beggars in effect; I desire those politicians who dislike my overture, and may perhaps be so bold to attempt an answer, that they will first ask the parents of these mortals, whether they would not at this day think it a great happiness to have been sold for food at a year old, in the manner I prescribe, and thereby have avoided such a perpetual scene of misfortunes, as they have since gone through, by the oppression of landlords, the impossibility of paying rent without money or trade, the want of common sustenance, with neither house nor clothes to cover them from the inclemencies of the weather, and the most inevitable prospect of entailing the like, or greater miseries, upon their breed for ever. I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavoring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the public good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich. I have no children, by which I can propose to get a single penny; the youngest being nine years old, and my wife past childbearing.

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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Ima Go Farm Now » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:16 am

we already know you eat children flo

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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Misty » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:01 am

Image
Flo wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 am
Sadly, Misty is right.

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Re: Yet another rule topic

Postby Nika » Mon May 08, 2017 7:19 am

So i have some free time atm (not like i am wasting the majority of my day in front of my pc like a tru nerd anyways lol)
But let us talk about the"logic" in record rules.

What we are opting for right now is to continue the same way we have followed for years, just with more consent from the community.
By doing that we will make injust and dumb decisions like we did in the past. E.g. Approving of autopcons, hell even approving toolbox to start with. I mean autopcons and rezzscrolls are op :))

However it is impossible to go back in time with out communitys current state.
Who would be willing to redo MONTHS if work, for a small or not so small change?
Records with no deaths are impacted so little that they were the reason to allow autopcons in the first place. However elsewhere like in doa this might be a huge difference.

So if we revert it we are at risk of making a part of us just straight up quit, or not accept the decision

One way to do something like this would be to give insane amounts of respect towards pure records. So anyone posting a standard record would be laughed at like it's the case with tas atm.

I 100% agree with what has said and I think we should make all these macros, hotkeys and so on legit
The excitement of speed run doesn't come from impressive had or gameplay, but from really amazing tactics.
Who cares if you know the veil savespot by heart or someone is pressing a button?

We are currently holding the mini lap in a deadlock. Unable to make a decision on it we just tell everyone not to use it. Effectively pushing the agenda of some here, meaning they don't even need to come to a result to get their desired outcome.
That is bullshit.

Accept all the features has talked about and then! After that, redefine the rules of standard so it fits the then new rules so that further expanding this becomes hard so we avoid theses things in the future.
Bc honestly, who isn't growing tired of this?


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