Guild Wars Speed Clear Records

hey,

we should discuss the use of the new toolbox minimap and it's features and decide if its allowed in records or not.

Personally i think it's a very nice tool which can provide players who know how to use it a better experience of the game, only concerning the additional information the map gives you. The ability to target foes on the map though seems a bit too much of a advantage if you ask me because it's something that cannot be done with the regular compass.

please stay polite during the discussion and have a nice Allerheiligen.

Mike

I ld like to extend this discussion to movement makros and targetting per enemy id.

Regarding the minimap, I dont mind and I do not use it - the only thing it really does better than the normal compass is allow you to see which direction enemys are facing and to target them, which is convenient but not a huge deal imo.

For context and a bit of shameless advertising, this is what we're talking about: http://tools.fbgmguild.com/gwtoolbox/info/minimap/

I am quite divided on this one. On one hand, it can indeed help with tasks that would be more difficult to do manually (like selecting the perfect hos target).
On the other hand, these situations where it is strictly a better way of targeting enemies are very few, and most of it comes down to personal preference/playstyle.
That said, I don't think it feather-beds bad players enough to warrant a ban.

Flo wrote:I ld like to extend this discussion to movement makros and targetting per enemy id.

This is where I start wondering if these two things wouldn't actually make the run a TAS.. I guess there's two sides to every coin, though.

Well, targeting enemy with the minimap is a big advantage. Doing it manually mean that you have to follow with your mouse the mob & play at the same time.
With the map, the mouse doesn't even move because you know where the split is. (I talk about 360, 6-0, 4th room foundry) So you prety much just put your mouse at the right position & click at the good timing / spam your click.

We should ban all of it in my opinion.
Although someone has to explain me how id targeting works.
Also once again raises the video question...

Totally agree with what Livia and Nika have said, clearly provides a huge advantage. This clearly shouldn't be allowed imo. Sad to see the past few years players trying to get advantages over other teams/players by making things like this to benefit themselves in speedruns

Only way to prove you ve not used any of the things above is by having a video for everything for every single point of view - which is manageable with 5 mods, its not like we have that many new records recently. But srsly, enforcing videos on every position is a little overkill imo.

Even with a video it would be hard to impossible to figure out if someone targetted an enemy via id or moved somewhere with an macro...

Marcin wrote:Sad to see the past few years players trying to get advantages over other teams/players by making things like this to benefit themselves in speedruns

I feel this is directed to me and I need to reply. The goal of Toolbox is to make the guild wars speedclear experience more enjoyable by adding and improving features that i think should have been in the game in the first place. Unfortunately the devs generally gave more priority to PvP than high end pve so they never did any QOL improvements and then just quit supporting it. Those improvements in toolbox are for all players who want to enjoy speedclears, regardless of their skill or whether they want to do records or not. The development of toolbox has nothing to do with my involvement in records. I agree that some of its features should not be allowed in record runs, and for that I will participate in a community discussion and use, in records, only what the community agrees to be acceptable. Finally, keep in mind that the availability of toolbox allows everyone to know what's possible and discuss about it as opposed to someone making and using their own private tools without the community knowing about it.

The last big addition to this list of features is the minimap, which I strongly believe makes gw better. Its main feature, which is usually overlooked, is being able to see at the real terrain. The default minimap does a terrible job at this, so players are forced, for example, to memorize HoS spots rather than interactively make the decision of where and when to use HoS. By seeing the real terrain you are allowed to make more effective choices, not because a program does it for you, but because you have better information.

Being able to target with the minimap was a relatively minor feature which I didn't even think of at the start of its development. It turned out to be the obvious thing to do, and it's one of those things that make you think "why isn't this possible by default?" as it feels very natural to use during gameplay. For record purposes, I think that good teams and players do not gain much if any real advantage: organized teams will have a EE target and a dedicated player for Off-Dmg which will usually have his targets selected way before any spike. On the other hand there are rare cases where minimap targeting can be very effective, for example to do a quick series of dc+dark prisons+seal in some dungeons and that is significantly harder to do with standard targeting. Overall though, the impact to records is minimal and I don't think people should be punished for choosing to play guild wars with a more useful minimap.

Lastly, I think this kind of discussions are great to see different point of views, but unfortunately the SC community is severely underrepresented here.

I was only talking about usage of these features in record runs not overall. Feel free to use anything you want in casual runs/ other speedclears if that helps you play better/ comforts you or w/e.
I was just stating that teams who use these features just have a advantage over other teams who don't use these things and just play with what guildwars has provided them with and what has been allowed from the rules. What Livia has wrote sums it up about this minimap which is the main topic here, however Flo also has a point about these movement macros too.

And yes, its great to finally have a 'discussion' of whether something should be allowed or not, but you are right Has, sadly the SC community is very underrepresented here.