Toolbox minimap

[Mikelton]

feel free to share this post to increase the amount of ppl taking part in the discussion...

[Pepsi]

Part 1: You have to be kidding me!
You are advertising participation in yet another useless GWSCR-thread, because you

think this kind of discussions are great to see different point of views

Discussions are great to see different points of views?
The Speedclear-Community is underrepresented in this forum because people who do express and stand by feelings that don’t match the general opinion, they might see their guild break apart within weeks, cannot open their Ally-Chat, or
post records within the boundaries of the given ruleset on this page without being target of the next shitstorm. Naturally, this is more than discouraging to take part in these one-sided “discussions” that cut out one point of view completely.

it’s great to finally have a 'discussion' of whether something should be allowed or not

You cannot be serious: Finally a discussion? Where have you been the last couple of years?
We've been debating about Toolbox itself, Autosweets, ID-Bug/Coindrop, Rupt-Bot (fine, that was a troll), Glitches (esp. Dhuum), but also about Second-based records or video-proof and just now you wake up and think it's great to have a discussion?
You participated and spread these topics yourself, attacked us DS nerds for standing up but it's a great idea to have diversity? Calling me a hypocrite when using toolbox in our accidental 3man (admittingly not you) just became even more ridiculous, compared to this.

This is where I start wondering if these two things wouldn't actually make the run a TAS.

Revolutionary idea – sadly, it’s not new.
Back then it was thrown out without thinking twice which again links to my first point, demoralizing the community.

seems a bit too much of a advantage if you ask me because it's something that cannot be done with the regular compass.

Let’s substitute “compass” for “client” and I cannot help but think: Fuck you.
That’s the finger to everything I have wrote on GWSCR so far. The argument that it does matter "what possibilities ANet gave us" is the basis of everyone who argued against Toolbox. Of course, Toolbox does make the game easier and quite possibly even better, but that's not the point in record-runs. If you dont like the way a game is programmed, you cannot just start adding features to it until you like it and then consider the altered version 'standard' and build rules on top of it. Thats like adding aim-bots to shooter-games and argue that it should always have been like this.

However, "something that cannot be done with the client" involves Auto-PCons just as much as targeting foes on a custom-build mini-map. Also, don’t give me that “I could use a macro for that” crap, either. If some program -be it a marco, bot, or hack- plays the game for you, especially in fractions of a second, it falls into this category.
You opening that already open door, therefore, just showed me that the arguments I've delivered in previous discussion have on some level been understood - finally some glimmer of light.

---

Part 2: The Problem
Again, we are discussing the legitimacy of one feature in one program.

the availability of toolbox allows everyone to know what's possible and discuss about it as opposed to someone making and using their own private tools without the community knowing about it.

This is not how rule-making works. We need clear boundaries for our page, not discuss every new feature you publish. The current ruleset does not forbid private tools - it's not just toolbox we have to worry about. Also, toolbox does not "show what's possible" just because you put it in there. There are scripts out there that could have an impact we can't even imagine yet.

(Skip to 1:11 and watch until end)


Watch this twice, thrice – I don’t care, let it sink in. This is the core of the problem we have in every discussion. I am trying to find rules that apply to all eventualities while people who just want their auto-sweets ignore all of it.

Several years ago people would not have dreamed of using programms like toolbox. There were some badass players who couldnt resist playing with the Zwar(?)-Timer, but that was about it. Today toolbox became mainstream just like the metaphorical phones he is talking about. We need rules about how we use it because there are no laws about other, previous tools, since there are none. Toolbox opened up the field in which we have to build the law-wall (insert Trump-joke here) and by allowing autosweets in speedruns we've put a terrible brick down.
We are the community who has to live with the rules, but we can also change them - and we should. If someone releases a new tool that does a lot more than toolbox, we might not be able to find rules for that tool, because we've established our set of mind when allowing auto-pcons.

It does not even have to be a new tool, as we are experiencing right now: A new version of Toolbox is being published and we run into problems, again.
Example: If you allow Auto-PCons, you have to allow Coordinate-Moving.
Argument for Auto-PCons: Can do it with the client.
Argument against Auto-PCons: Not that fast.
Argument for Auto-PCons: Yes, I do. /end of discussion

Apply to this:
Argument for Coord-Moving: Can to it with the client.
Possible argument against Coord-Moving: Not that accurate.
To which I now provokingly encounter: Yes, I can.

I cannot deny being somewhat happy that other people start running into the same moral dilemma I had to face during the last months. Something (Coord-Move for example) -in one's own opinion- should "obviously" not be allowed, but people won't see why and argue it's not affecting the game. Of course it is! It's the exact same deal with auto-sweets but these are so much more common and useful which makes it even more important to discuss.
And again: We're talking about speedruns here - not the everyday casual. We're talking about runs that are actively formed and designed to break a current record or set up a record that hasn't been set so far. Looking at the board right now, you cannot say that these runs are happening on a daily basis to every player who likes speedruns.

However, arguing about this here and in so many other posts is useless. It's ridiculous arguing about these tiny, meaningless cases, if this feature should be allowed or how to handle that new update.
We need rules that can sustain the next toolbox-feature as well as all private scripts that might do something we havent thought about yet - something we can build upon.

---

Part 3: The Solution
It’s not new. It’s not special. It’s not work for the mods: Different categories.

We will never find a ruleset that everyone in this game is satisfied with, but we can find several rulesets, divided into different grades of Tool-Assistance, that as closely as possible resemble one's views on how record-runs should be treated.
Some people don’t want to abandon the toolbox, so they shouldn’t be stripped of it.
Others don’t want any 3rd-party-programms, so let’s give them the possibility to publish their achievements.

Everyone can decide on their own which ruleset suits them best.
Everyone can decide if a record has more meaning in a more restriced ruleset.
Also, if the team cannot prove they followed all the rules, we can assume the worst and list the record in a section in which breaking the rules in question isn't a problem.

We have a simple choice: Make one ruleset that half the players don’t like and make them withdraw from GWSCR, killing the page completely, or allow everyone to share their records in a ruleset they like most.

I’ll break it off now, cause I don’t want to write another couple-hundred words just to see people tearing it apart and give them more fuel to hate me, but I want to debunk the argument that we don’t have enough mods to organize a “change of this size”:
Every new record can be posted as

[Restricted] XXmin YY by [ZZZZ]
[Toolbox] XXmin YY by [ZZZZ]
[Hacked my arse off] XXmin YY by [ZZZZ]

the mods can open new sticky threads

Current-Meta Restricted Records
Current-Meta Unrestricted Records

and list these there – done.

We don’t need more mods, new websites and a new shitstorm every week about the next toolbox-update.
We are the community who wants a page like this. We deliver the content, we want the competition, we can make the change. We just have to give everyone the opportunity to participate.

[Vivec]

Having been dabbling in a lot of different speedruns the past months I can not help but agree with Pepsi here. (I know, I have not in the past)

But the way Pepsi suggests we handle this is exactly the way speedrun.com handles similar situations. Game has glitches and you want to use them? Run Any%. You don't like glitching? Run Any% Glitchless. You want to do a Pokemon run and get the badges in reverse order? Run that category, no one cares if only 5 people run it, but its there.

I think it is not a bad target to handle records and rulesets a bit more similar to other speedrunning communities. We do not have to take all the stuff they do, but a few proven ways of doing things could be adapted quite easily. There are tons of other speedrunning communities out there that are smaller than this and can handle it this way. I don't see a reason for that to be impossible here.

But on the other hand, I am inactive af.

[Mikelton]

please stay polite during the discussion

Fuck you

... don't know what this is for. i use my free time and effort to keep this site up, why haven't you applied for moderator yet to deal with all the bullshit here?

However, i share the same opinion on 3rd party tools as you do, Pepsi. Even though i also wished there were very strict rules i fear this will shrink the SC community more and more.... So maybe the splitting of restricted and unrestricted might be the only way to suit everyone's idea of how a reocrd should look like.

[Flo]

Again: If you set a rule, you will have to enforce it.

P-Cons: I could easily write an simple auto-hotkey program that presses I, moves the mouse to position x,y clicks twice, moves the mouse, clicks twice and so on without any injection to the client. If i put in enough variance you coudlnt even tell if it was done manually or by a tool, at least not without any doubt.

Coordinate Movement: Yes, toolbox displays a message once you activate a movement macro - thats so easy to not have it do that.

Minimap: Remember the old toolbox (before ++) that wouldnt appear on screens/videos? I dont see why it wouldnt be possible to have the minimap be like that, not visible in any video-proof.

Ruptbot: You cant tell. The runner could just claim the mob uses skills in a certain pattern, he has good reflexes, tried 100 times and so on.

The current rules have one big advantage: We can, if we see a video of the run, with a pretty good certainty say whether something not allowed by the rules was done. Targetting a gitb with tb? You can see that. Using dialog id to accept a quest/tp around? You can see that. Ruptbot? Thats an exception, we cant see that.

Tell me how you want to strictly enforce theses rules you re advertising.

[Misty]

Alright so Pepsi, please correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are proposing is 2 different sets of rules:
1. Tool-Assisted:
exactly the same rules we have now, but you're also allowed to target ghosts, use a rupt bot, tele around UW etc etc. No videos are required; the only necessary proof of completion is /age and F11 on a screenshot showing that you completed the area. A full video showing duration is an acceptable substitute for a screenshot.
2. Restricted:
no Toolbox, no uMod; no third party programmes whatsoever that have any effect on Guild Wars, including hotkeys to do ANYTHING
no abuses of broken game mechanics such as glitching Dhuum or glitch spots in Veil
all players in the team must post a full video to prove that they abided by the rules - this would require a lot of scrutiny, so videos would have to be public, unless of course we had many more moderators to go through all the videos...

This would make everyone happy, right? Not really. Personally I could accept not being able to use Toolbox, but I hate playing with classic GW textures, so that would put me in the Tool-Assisted camp, and I certainly do not want to be lumped together with botters and hackers. You seem to be suggesting that all third party programs are equally bad, but the discussions we've had (particularly the rupt bot nonsense) prove that it's not that simple. The player-base have more subtle opinions on where to draw the line, and we need to reach a reasonable compromise rather than impose harsh restrictions.
As Flo said, enforcing those restrictions is next to impossible. I don't think there are any approved records that obey all these rules, so you'd be starting off with an empty record table, and people would have to change their habits in order to achieve anything.

What ANet gave us is not perfect. They're not gods, and they clearly never intended to focus high-end PvE in this game. Toolbox just adds HELPFUL features that really should have been part of the game in the first place, and would be if ANet didn't abandon Guild Wars 1, leaving speed clear areas woefully underdeveloped. It's our job as intelligent adults (and Nika) to decide which features are too much, and which are acceptable.

[roflmfao]

Alright so Pepsi, please correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are proposing is 2 different sets of rules:
1. Tool-Assisted:
exactly the same rules we have now, but you're also allowed to target ghosts, use a rupt bot, tele around UW etc etc. No videos are required; the only necessary proof of completion is /age and F11 on a screenshot showing that you completed the area. A full video showing duration is an acceptable substitute for a screenshot.

Jup. Or if you like, split this further. We can easily move to speedrun.com if this site with an inactive admin cannot cope with the necessary changes.

2. Restricted:
no Toolbox, no uMod; no third party programmes whatsoever that have any effect on Guild Wars, including hotkeys to do ANYTHING
no abuses of broken game mechanics such as glitching Dhuum or glitch spots in Veil
all players in the team must post a full video to prove that they abided by the rules - this would require a lot of scrutiny, so videos would have to be public, unless of course we had many more moderators to go through all the videos...

I actually don't think glitches should be banned, they are a core aspect of speedruns everywhere. If a glitch is discovered that has a *massive* impact (coindrop would maybe fit that category, but nothing else that was found so far. I'm thinking of stuff like Kiln Skip in DkS1 or duping in Bloodborne), maybe that would warrant shifting into a seperate category. Or just go with any% glitchless v. any%. Not a big deal.

This would make everyone happy, right? Not really. Personally I could accept not being able to use Toolbox, but I hate playing with classic GW textures, so that would put me in the Tool-Assisted camp, and I certainly do not want to be lumped together with botters and hackers. You seem to be suggesting that all third party programs are equally bad, but the discussions we've had (particularly the rupt bot nonsense) prove that it's not that simple. The player-base have more subtle opinions on where to draw the line, and we need to reach a reasonable compromise rather than impose harsh restrictions.

The point is that without such strict rules, you would need to be discussing every single new feature/exploit/hack every single time one is found or created. Every time toolbox gets more functionality, we need another discussion. And every time we're further fractally splitting the community into the yay and nay camps. The only rule that will hold up is "No third party tools of any kind are allowed in this category." So a patched client, unmodified. And using standard input hardware. Sure, some external tools give a bigger advantage than others, and the usage of *purely* cosmetic texmod could be an explicit exception, but it should be clear that "only stuff that doesn't give an advantage" is a pretty poor rule.

As Flo said, enforcing those restrictions is next to impossible. I don't think there are any approved records that obey all these rules, so you'd be starting off with an empty record table, and people would have to change their habits in order to achieve anything.

There must still be some level of trust. But it is not impossible to check with a decent amount of scrutiny. It's even been discussed before: Make. Everyone. Record. A. Video. Anyone can do it, it's completely free, and doesn't require modification of the game so it's not breaking any rules. Then anyone can watch the video, and if there is suspicion, the whole community can check and confirm/deny such accusations. Which is how the vast majority of speedgames are handled. And none of them have any of the issues that people pretend to be worried about.

What ANet gave us is not perfect. They're not gods, and they clearly never intended to focus high-end PvE in this game. Toolbox just adds HELPFUL features that really should have been part of the game in the first place, and would be if ANet didn't abandon Guild Wars 1, leaving speed clear areas woefully underdeveloped. It's our job as intelligent adults (and Nika) to decide which features are too much, and which are acceptable.

Nonononono. That doesn't work. "Should have been part of the game" is a silly thing to say. Especially when you claim that they would have been included eventually. They're very nice features, and it's impressive what toolbox can do. Even more impressive what other tools can do that are not available to the public. And those are even more convenient. But nobody would argue that such things should be permitted. The problem caused by toolbox is that it legitimized a certain subset of hacks, and by being as popular as it is makes people think these must be fine and allowed. The game is given to us "as is". Sure it might be nice to modify it, and for your everyday playing experience there is nobody stopping you from using external tools to aid your comfort. Perhaps there should always have been the option of taking quests from NPCs that are fighting. Makes sense, really. They just need to talk to me to tell me what they want, that should totally be doable while they're swinging swords or slinging spells. But for record runs, the only simple and clear rule can be: All is allowed or nothing is allowed. Anything else and you end up moving closer and closer to just coding nice bots.

[Pepsi]

Part 1: Mike
I’ve been standing up for what I belief should be the common ground in our rules and now you bring the exact same argument that I’ve been giving in all this time. You have absolutely no idea how much crap I had to endure during the last few years. DS broke apart due to this very discussion and people just seem to find it funny. blub/blub
I’m not willing to let anyone bring this argument after I had to live through shit like this daily – not without the least consideration I was somewhat right.
This applies to the “idea” of splitting up records just as much. This has been proposed years ago and no one could care. Today it suddenly became a great idea, because someone else posted it - no thanks.

Why have I not been applying for the Mod?
I’ve been thinking about doing that and several people told me that I should. I ended up refusing to do so for the simple reason that I won’t give any more reason to have more of this everyday shitstorm against me or the guild I am currently in.
Do you really think having me as a Mod would change anything? Go through the forum, old threads or think back what was written in the old Ally-Chat. It’s pointless having a Moderator who isn’t respected by anyone except these few “DS-nutjobs” who don’t like toolbox.
I’m not willing to add more fuel to the fire.

You share the same opinion?
Well, I didn’t know that because, apparently, you never stood up for that in any post - on the contrary.
Enforcing the will of the people is a great thing but you cannot claim your opinion does any good to the discussion if you never expressed it.

---

Part 2: Flo
Firstly, I want to link the If murder was legal video again: "The law against murder is the #1 thing preventing murder."
Just because we might not be able to enforce a rule, doesn’t mean we should not make that rule.

We have records on the table right now where not everyone linked a video. How do you enforce the current rules? How can you know that they didn’t HoS off GitB?
The new section for tool-assisted records is a perfect place for a record like this. You cannot prove you’ve been playing without any tools, so the record cannot be listed as a Restricted Run.

Of course, there are some idiots out there who apparently get off on cheating and therefore break the rules. Obviously, we might not be able to see everything that has been done, but we can see simultaneously popped auto-sweets. If people really do have to write their new scripts to make their cursor move onto the sweets, so be it – they’ll lose the advantage over regular players anyway.

I am not claiming we will catch everyone, but the general discussion is about things we can control.
The system is built on trust and I get that this cannot be the only restriction, but making rules that outline what people are using without any rules, is pointless. If we’re not willing to make rules that justify a certain category (and this may as well be “everything is permitted”) in which a record can be listed in, but create rules so that records can be approved within this ruleset, you can ignore all the rules anyway.

/edit
I've just had another thought on that topic: I'd trust people who want and will use the Non-TAS-category more to not use any tools than people who don't want it. Don't kill me for being so provokative.
Think about it. Players who want to use Toolbox in Speedruns, shouldn't really care about records being posted as N-TAS. They are not worth more, they don't void your record; they're just a different section for the people who want stricter rules. Ignore it, if you think it's a stupid idea.
People who actively want N-TAS records, will have to turn off these tools - for obvious reasons. However, I don't think they will start writing programms to cheat the system, so they still can pop sweets automatically.
If a person who honestly cares about being listed in the N-TAS-section does close Toolbox, I’m willing to assume that they want the record done in a legitimate way - for themself, therefore not using any other tools as well.
/end

We have punishments esablished on GWSCR. If rulebreaking does have consequences, people might not be as willing to break them. Of course, you can cheat but getting caught may suck really bad.

Any team attempting to fake a record will see its members banned from any future record.

Source
Now, banning people from this page for this reason will make it very lonely in a matter of days but that’s the point of several sections. If you cannot prove you’ve been playing by the given ruleset, you don’t get to be listed in that section.

---

Part 3: Misty
I am proposing as many sections as we need. I don’t know how many that is, but obviously not every record can be its own category. I am proposing that everyone should be able to play in a ruleset that he feels most comfortable in. Therefore, out of the top of my head, I’d create sections like that:

Section (A): TAS – Current status quo
Use Bots that do affect the game but don’t allow hacks that enable progress you couldn’t achieve by playing regularly.
Basically, this is where the current records would fall in – therefore you don’t have another reset.

Section (B): Non-TAS
Here, I’d ban all records that use programs that play the game for you – most likely Autosweets, arguably macros. Thus, texmods, timers, etc. are not a problem.
Basically, what I've been arguing for so far.

Section (C): Unproven
I don’t know if that’s needed, since we could list these in the TAS-section, but it might be a good idea to have a place to list records that don’t really fall into one of the above. For example a team that was planning to do a legit record but someone couldn’t deliver a video for whatever reason. We can tell they did not use Dialog-Hacks due to the other videos but can’t prove an Autosweet-free run.

Section (D): Other
I wouldn’t make this an official category, but I still want to leave room for people who want to play by their own rules. Maybe that’s 100% hacked runs where you finished UW at 3/10 while dropping 100k in coins, maybe that’s runs with the client only, no texmods, no timer, no glitches – man vs machine.
Perhaps, we could have unproven records listed here, as well.


Maybe, we should have more, maybe less - I don’t know. I just think this will enable everyone to participate. The rules have to be as clear and as general as possible so they survive the toolbox-update without forcing us to rewrite the rules.

And again: I don’t want x subsections and y sticky threads – it’s probably more than reasonable to just list a new record on the table with its category.

[Nika]

Ugh, time to think about this i guess.
Or make more memes about DS rupt bots? idk

[Flo]

@Pepsi

But what would that accomplish really? It would seggregate the community even further, would make it harder to form any 8 man team because of different oppinnions.

If you do a record without tb and texmod now, great - go ahead and post it. Some people will appreciate it and others wont, but thats the case with anything. Doing a strictly worse record just because you cant compete with the existing ones and use "oh but he used auto pcons" as an excuse is a little weak in my eyes.

A bad player with tb will be worse than a good player with tb and a good player without tb will still be better than a bad player without it.