Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

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Rocks4Free
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In-game name: Marlana
Guild: DS

Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Rocks4Free »

Barath wrote:hey guys. i`ve been watching this quite a while and i`ll tell you what i think about this whole discussion
over 8 years of guildwars, and over nearly as many years i play it, there was NEVER a discussion like this before.
why? because it was always about to get the FASTEST TIMES THAT ARE POSSIBLE out of the game!
I can take "The nightmare comes" at age 5. Still possible, should it be legit?
Barath wrote: since the toolbox is public, i see more and more ppl saying that stuff like this should be banned from speedruns.
And i welcome that ... was about time!
Barath wrote: but there was similar stuff as the toolbox looong time ago, for example the zraw hacks menu from mike. stuff like this was allowed for speedruns, same as any kind of glitch that you were able to find out for all the time i played guildwars speedclears.
Who allowed hacks and cheats? Anet? Your party member? A private public community forum?
Barath wrote: and now after many years some ppl come and want to do challenging content without that. thats cool! i like that! ;)

make a second table for "restricted records" where you are not allowed to use ANY programm except the guildwars.exe and you aren`t allowed to use ANY glitches (no dhuumstuck for example too, no glitching for enemies in doa at the gates and all that stuff)

THAT would be consequent if you dont like glitching/bugging/hacking/cheating in a game
I totally agree to the first part ... but to ban glitches etc. from the game overshoot the mark. Then you should also restrict that player get not hit by skele, because anet wants you to get hit ... and thats nonsense imo.
Barath wrote: so. 2 record tables. the one that we were posting on since many years and where ppl go for the FASTEST TIMES THAT ARE POSSIBLE in the game, and a new one where u aren`t allowed to glitch/bug/hack/cheat or use any 3rd party programm!

i think that would be a good solution for everyone.

if you go for challenging stuff in a game like records where you measure your skill etc. with the skill of others, there are always rules so everyone is on the same lvl and got the same chances. the simplest solution for that: allow everything, so everyone got the same chance to get the record as everyone else. and thats how the guildwars records worked until now. if you want new rules, sure! but on a second record table please ;)

conclusion: 2 record tables! the old one that we were posting on since many years, and a new one for restricted records where you are not allowed to use any glitches or 3rd party programms ;)

have a nice day guys! and NEVER FORGET: its a GAME! we all want to have FUN here! so, lets have fun please and stop being angry :D
Barath
Sorry, but thats [*censored*]. If you gonna allow any Cheat/Hack and shit then we'll see the best coders on No.1 .... awww i would reccomend that *jk* xD

Barath
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Guild: [trip] (MY OLD LOVE) / [DS] (Gw1) / [Vs] (Gw2)

Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Barath »

dat norbert :D (i was in teamspeak with him when he wrote it)
Rocks4Free wrote:Sorry, but thats [*censored*]. If you gonna allow any Cheat/Hack and shit then we'll see the best coders on No.1

i was friendly and wished you a nice day and you say its [*censored*] :shock: :shock:
just kidding...^^
norbert, all that stuff WAS allowed(by the gwscr rules) until NOW, many ppl used it on their runs in the past (most ppl just made SCREENSHOTS of their runs and it got approved, you can`t say how many records are done with/without hacks). i am NOT saying that that is GOOD or that i LIKE IT. i was mad in the past because ppl used attribute hacks in their record runs and i did not. i was just saying that it should not be DELETED from the record table, because its how things were going for a long time.

just keep the old table as it is and create a new table where those hacks+stuff are NOT allowed for records. as i said before i would like that

you can`t just ignore many years of speedclearing because no one exactly knows what happened in every of those runs. because you got only screenshots for the most runs there
Rocks4Free wrote:I can take "The nightmare comes" at age 5. Still possible, should it be legit?
it should be approved to the old table if you take the OLD RECORD RULES as the fastest time underworld is done, because it would be the fastest time underworld is done(would love to see that screen though)^^ but i would not take that as a reason to stop doing uwsc speedruns without hacks and going for a 12min without hacks because you CAN´T COMPARE IT


conclusion again: 2 record tables. the old one and a new one where you play without hacks+shit ;)

i just played a game called "ori and the blind forest(awesome game). for example, there is a speedrunner holding both: the game-record WITH and WITHOUT glitches. the record doing the game 100% legit is 1h 12min, the record WITH glitches is 24min. the one run is the WORLD RECORD (fastest time) the other record is done WITHOUT glitches(legit).

thats what we need for gw :) 1 table for records with glitches+stuff and one for legit runs!

god that was a long comment hehe wtb tl;dr

still i wish you all a awesome day. and still: DONT FORGET ITS A GAME ;)

Nika
Posts: 616
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Guild: [SenT]

Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Nika »

Barath wrote:

conclusion again: 2 record tables. the old one and a new one where you play without hacks+shit ;)

i just played a game called "ori and the blind forest(awesome game). for example, there is a speedrunner holding both: the game-record WITH and WITHOUT glitches. the record doing the game 100% legit is 1h 12min, the record WITH glitches is 24min. the one run is the WORLD RECORD (fastest time) the other record is done WITHOUT glitches(legit).

thats what we need for gw :) 1 table for records with glitches+stuff and one for legit runs!

god that was a long comment hehe wtb tl;dr

still i wish you all a awesome day. and still: DONT FORGET ITS A GAME ;)
Glitches =/= hacks.

Mikelton
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 1:26 pm
In-game name: Spirit Of The Beer
Guild: Guardians Of Lost Tempel [Golt]

Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Mikelton »

i fully agree with Rocks4Nobody's arguments. The ideas barath brought are too radical if you ask me, yet he is absolutely right when he says that we need consequence. and also some other arguments, e.g. by has saying that the item drop is just a bug as necrotic/res scroll bug was cannot be denied. The most important thing for our rules set is that they must be consequent.
When can we make sure that a record was achieved under fair and equal conditions? what can we allow to be valid for getting a record?

well, in my opinion the coindrop enabled by a 3rd party tool (toolbox or w.e.) has to be banned from records.
What this logically means then (in order to stay consequent) is that all 3rd party programs which give you any advantage must be banned from records.
If we ban any kind of "glitch" doable without 3rd party tool in the game like stucking foes at 360 in doa, or even just blocking their attacks behind a wall, come on that would be ridiculous!
But in order to remain consequent, we would have to do this, if we wanted to forbid manual coin/item drop.

So in the end we must say:
- if we ban coindrop by 3rd party help, we have to ban any 3rd party help
- we cannot ban manual item glitch cause it would make the whole record system ridiculous
- we must have a prove for every member in a record team (-->video), else we cannot prove that no 3rd party tool was used, i am quite sure that the "we trust everyone" system for approvement will lead us to hillarious discussion below every record posted and i dont want that.

cheers Mike

Ima Go Farm Now
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Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Ima Go Farm Now »


Marcin
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Guild: [SenT]

Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Marcin »

So funny how this discussion on the drop bug evolved into pcons POPPER, timers and shit. If you DS nerds and other people wanna argue about toolbox and timers pls visit this '1year' old topic which this was already discussed:

http://gwscr.fbgmguild.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=681

'All currently acceptable uses of Toolbox are to remain so. This means that pcon poppers, timers, recall hotkeys, etc, are acceptable.' This was what the community has accepted and followed since the last rule update in september 2014.

This is a discussion about the drop bug not anything else. So please stop saying stupid comments like 'oh we should not allow dhuum gltich if this bug isnt allowed' .

Funny how people try and compare this usage of a bug to other things such as necrotic and dhuum glitch [etc] just so that this bug will be accepted and that they will be able to use it for their records.

Mikelton
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Guild: Guardians Of Lost Tempel [Golt]

Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Mikelton »

the problem with this is that those rules were never written in the official table

livia
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In-game name: Livia La Jolie

Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by livia »

Since i'm on this forum the rule were never clear about 3rd party software nor about glitch exploit. This is the only reason why we have this discussion. Actually, the rule were clear but not respected.
Some record were accepted with an obvious use of 3rd party software and everything snowball after that. In fact we are at a point were everyone is a script users unless he provides a prove that is not. Isn't a little bit sad.

By the way, a community / organization can totally forbid something even if it's ok in the official game. Just check swimming, some swimming suits were forbidden because they were considered to op (high tech body suits at London Olympics). Same in ping pong (speed glue banned in 2012). The whole point of this form is to make the rules clear, objective & fair.

If the community want to ban coindrop (even manually use of it) it's completely ok, so is ban Dhuum glitch. But it's not because we ban one that we have to ban all kind of glitch, that's were admin with community help must take the good decision. Just keep in mind, if the measure become too restrictive (video for everyone, because srs every split = everyone in record) i think it will create big shit (someone forgot to record or couldn't).

As Mike said we have to make rules official & write it in the official table.
People want to authorize some 3rd party tool ? It's ok if the majority want it, but make the things clear.

Barath
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Guild: [trip] (MY OLD LOVE) / [DS] (Gw1) / [Vs] (Gw2)

Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Barath »

Marcin wrote:If you DS nerds and other people wanna argue about toolbox and timers pls visit this '1year' old topic
no need to get unfriendly.
we "DS NERDS" currently dont use toolbox or id-bug or anything like that. we want a clean and nice record without toolbox+stuff. only thing we use is the timer. but that is how WE want the record. other ppl might have other opinions... thats how it always is ;)
Marcin wrote:Funny how people try and compare this usage of a bug to other things such as necrotic and dhuum glitch [etc] just so that this bug will be accepted and that they will be able to use it for their records.
you are like "i like that glitch, and i dont like that one. so we allow that glitch, and dont allow that one" and thats just not how it works^^atleast if you want a ruleset that everyone in a community agrees with.
so you like the one glitch, so its allowed. someone else thinks "glitching dhuum is such a hard bug, he does not attack and stuff, needs to be banned" so he wants to get that glitch banned from records.
like mike and me already said, the only way to get it, is to be consequent.


@livia
Livia wrote:But it's not because we ban one that we have to ban all kind of glitch
that is true, but then you have to make a poll for every exploit in the game and that would be hilarious. because there are TONS of. and some think the ones are fair and some think they are not. that wouldn`t end the discussion because everyone got a different opinion, as i wrote earlier.
i totally agree with the rest of what you wrote

Mikelton
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Re: Changes regarding Coindrop [Rule Update]

Post by Mikelton »

even if i have a clear opinion to the topic as said in my latest post before this one:
What i suggest we can do is make a poll where everyone can distinctly vote for what kind/features of 3rd party program and ingame techniques (coindrop) shall be allowed on records and what not. And what the majority finds to be good will be translated into rules for the new meta. i am still not quite sure about how we make sure that the poll really represents what the people think and disabling manipulation of the poll. any recommendations are welcome.

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