Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

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Nika
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Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:07 am
In-game name: Nika Iz Back
Guild: [SenT]

Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by Nika »

Hey guys,

this comment on the 43 min Solo Fow Thread by Sakura led me to publish this long overdue opinion-comment.
Karia wrote:Here is your announcend "complainment"-comment about gold coin cheat. Be happy to achived a record which is actually none. Even if Nika will approve it i just cant respect players like you.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'd like to state that i am one of these people that hates the Coindrop-Bug. For me personally it ruined plenty of casual runs when people started doing things such as in fow the cave wolf or khobay with coindrop instead of using their minds and take 10 seconds more to solve the issue with good tactics.
It also ruins the enjoyment of plenty record runs simply because you nullify plenty good tactics with a stubborn, mindless one.
The sad thing is, technically one cannot forbid the useage because it is an ingame bug. In this case it might be often helped with a macro to make it easier, but that is too easy replicable. Also you can't really prove the useage, unless enough pictures show evidence or the build is chosen a bit too open.

All i can hope for is that people will find that little thing called honor and don't abuse this technique in record runs, especially those with more than 1 person in it.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

We all agreed on that the solo uw record with the bug is legit, because there is no other way of doing it.
And sadly we allowed Ninas solo fow record (47min) where he used the Minipet-drop solely for the Mo/me to lower the failrate on tengus.

For the past few months i tried to tell people that ill reject any solo fow record with coindrop, because it's kind of a cheat. But i just can't hold this statement having a 47 min solo fow as current record doing exactly that.
So now theres the problem.
The posted 43 min record is only a foreshadowing of what is POSSIBLE to achieve. You can go 39min and less.
Now here's the thing for anyone, including myself, who is interrested in competing the solo fow record. Should we put hundreds of cons and pcons into a record that has PLENTY of Luck-based parts and then end up doing a record that is like 3min slower (fastest time reachable is about 42 min) or actually cheat aswell, use only half the cons because you can cancel out half of the luck based parts.

My own answer to this question is, that having more potential competition makes things more interresting and tactic development way richer, than limiting a record that much that only 1-2 people dare touching it.

___________________________________________________________________________________


I hope people will be honest about using coindrop and i will create new sections for records achieved without coindrop.
Also achieving a time without coindrop will always be priority over a coindrop record and thus replace the coindroprecord instead of simply tie'ing those.

To prove that a record was done without coindrop people can add a video, or use bars and tacitcs that succeed without the help of coindrop at a high rate (not including spawns of monsters, i guess you get the concept).

As i don't feel myself experienced enough with any area-record runs besides the Fissure of Woe i hope that people will start actively discussing in each topic which is not a Coindrop record.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Some points may sound dumb, and ofcourse people are able to trick and cheat on records using coins on a "real" record. But we shall stick to our roots, and it's always been a trustbased System.
Cheaters gonna cheat.

Have a nice day and excuse any grammar errors or missspellings. I suck @ typing alot.

Kaspar
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by Kaspar »

Solo uw is absolutely possible without coin drop now that we can glitch dhuum on the pillar. It's just a question of whether you want to roll the dice for the 4h quest take
(40 minutes for lab->mtns(slayer)->4h take) and then risk failing dhuum after spending 2 hours to get 10/10. I'd rather uninstall then push for a record like that though.

Nika
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by Nika »

Ok that's cool to know, but taking your last sentence into Account you get the point ;)

haskhasin
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by haskhasin »

My opinion on the drop-bug is based on the community basic rule: if it's possible with in-game tools, it's allowed, otherwise it is not.

Most game hacks and glitches are either one category or the other, for example moving to a certain spot for res scrolls or hos or w/e with macro or manually is virtually the same, so it's allowed. On the other hard, targeting a Boo is impossible with in-game tools, and it's disallowed.

Coin drop, unfortunately, is a grey area. Although dropping is a in-game mechanic, the process of dropping is time consuming (drag coin outside, click confirm) and it is really difficult to coin drop while doing anything else, expecially moving.

The act of dropping adds a new task for the player. Using a macro effectively removes the burden for this task, freeing the player to focus his brain on other things. Thus, using a drop macro is NOT the same as doing it manually.

In conclusion, my opinion is that dropping is an in-game mechanic that can be used, however automating it with a macro or any 3rd party program is not to be allowed.
Lastly, I don't mind if people post "records" where they use drop macros, I appreciate the effort and congratulate for the result, but it should not go on the table, people should not be forced to use a macro in order to be competitive.

About proof: video proof is already a requirement of record submission, you can easily see if a macro was used for dropping.

Nika
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by Nika »

Videos are not a requirement. They are an helping option when doubted. And i guess in uw atleast 1 video must be posted in order to proove no Telehacks were used.

haskhasin
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by haskhasin »

Oh, really? My bad. It doesn't matter that much anyway, records are based on trust. If you want real proof you need every player's video.

Marcin
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by Marcin »

Some people may call me a hypocrite, but idc. I have to agree with Alex's comment. Even though I used this to tie the previous record for solo fow, at first I was quite excited however I knew that the bug was used and there was actually not much skill required, only need luck at the spawns for griffs. I only started to do solo fow due to the amount of players who started to do it using the bug and thinking theyre good when in reality, they have no skill in casual fows (not saying names). I achieved this record in about 30tries which in which 4other runs were completed whereas you compare this to last year when I did solo fow, on avergae 1 out of 30runs was a complete run. This shows how easy it is to do this area with the bug whereas if you actually do it without, it is a huge challenge and quite hard. Standing there dropping coins next to menzies, camp, mome groups and sheperds requires no SKILL whereas you was to give someone techno and unseen fury, they would be absolutely clueless. Also, this isnt just for solo fow, other previous records like solo uw, solo fow and some guilds 20min doa's wouldnt have been able to be accomplished due to the use of the previous minipet/ghost spam bug and now the current dropping bug.

Yes, I expect to see 'Oh Marcin you used it in solo fow bla bla' but I stated the reasons above and Nika did too in his paragraph, but I really think that any record which uses the bug shouldnt be approved/ or be valid. Interested to see the rest of the community opinion.

Viva
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by Viva »

You guys make me crazy. The Minipet-bug is based on same. Well no. Its more OP because you could walk and cast while poping pet. You cry over coin drop? Ok idc if you reject it but then remove Ninas too because its based on same shit enemies not casting. Its ok when you all against me idgaf about you all but be fair and accept it or remove both. Btw its me Sakura and not Viva

Mikelton
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by Mikelton »

i also share alex and marcin's opinion, but sakura is right. his solo fow should be rejected (in my opinion) but as a consequence also ninas record must be denied. of course records are frustrating and in many cases purely based on luck, but thats what differs them from casuals and the more you struggle to achieve it, the more you can appreciate it afterwards.
Every good record tactic/build must be constructed to deal with critical foes, such as big damage dealers or annoying healers.
This is simply no longer the case with coin/minipet/whateverdrop.
I am a big fan of awesome builds and tactics and what i see with coindrop is, that people use common, well known "tactics" instead of thinking about their own way of finding a solution for any given problem. I am not deeply into fow, but i am sure you guys are smart enough to handle e.g. the immense heal of menzie/monks other than with coindrop.
I can understand that some of you just wanna go for the maximum best time, which of course with coindrop will be a faster time than without.
So i would recommend, if the community agrees, to make an own section for such "coindrop-records"
But they have lost absolutely nothing on the alltime record/ current meta record table.

just my Senf added to this topic, greetz

Nika
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Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:07 am
In-game name: Nika Iz Back
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Re: Nika's View on the Coindrop-Abuse

Post by Nika »

Viva wrote:You guys make me crazy. The Minipet-bug is based on same. Well no. Its more OP because you could walk and cast while poping pet. You cry over coin drop? Ok idc if you reject it but then remove Ninas too because its based on same shit enemies not casting. Its ok when you all against me idgaf about you all but be fair and accept it or remove both. Btw its me Sakura and not Viva
You realize this is a Public discussion not about your record only.
So cut the crap and the drama and usw opinions and facts!

@mike: Adding a whole new section would make perfect sense!

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